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Shaheed? & the Unjust Ruler

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    Shaheed? & the Unjust Ruler

    The recent Pak Army operation in Waziristan led to a discussion with a friend recently about Muslims versus Muslims in wars. The question is straight forward: in battles between the two which dead are considered shaheed?

    I would imagine there must have been a lot of debate on the issue over the centuries of Muslim conflict.

    Does it make a difference in the case of a civil war or separate Muslim states at war?

    Also at what moment does opposition to a unjust Muslim ruler become an obligation?
    How can a man die better than facing fearful odds for the ashes of his fathers and the Temple of his Gods?

    #2
    i think the issue has been discussed some months back ....

    It depends on the situation ..some time both sides are shaheeds....i-e when there is difference of ijtihad .....like in war of jammal ...

    there may be one side or both sides on the wroong sides...i-e both fighting for monetry reasons only against islamic teachings....
    لا عيش إلا عيش الآخرة
    BROTHERS NOT SLAVES. Regain Respect

    Comment


      #3
      Muslims are not supposed to fight eachother (according to Sunni Madhabs) therefore they will be punished for fighting eachother. perhaps that might jeopardise their martyrdom to some extent...... look on http://www.islam-qa.com

      He who laughs last thinks slowest

      Comment


        #4
        ^ So how does that apply to the battle of the camel during the time Ali?

        Also when you say jeapordise martyrdom are you referring to those soldiers following orders who may not be aware of the faith of their enemies? The Taliban and any Pakistani ulema claimed the talibans war was a Jihad against the Northern alliance because they were kaffirs.
        How can a man die better than facing fearful odds for the ashes of his fathers and the Temple of his Gods?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Zakk:
          ^ So how does that apply to the battle of the camel during the time Ali?

          Also when you say jeapordise martyrdom are you referring to those soldiers following orders who may not be aware of the faith of their enemies? The Taliban and any Pakistani ulema claimed the talibans war was a Jihad against the Northern alliance because they were kaffirs.
          i was talking about righteous muslims against eachother not jus muslims by name.

          He who laughs last thinks slowest

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by hafsa_dudette:


            i was talking about righteous muslims against eachother not jus muslims by name.
            so answer his question
            what about battle of jamal and siffeen..when muslims were fighting the muslims

            i say it depends who is on haq

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Sheraz CT:


              so answer his question
              what about battle of jamal and siffeen..when muslims were fighting the muslims

              i say it depends who is on haq
              I thought kay if two party of muslims fight that one is haq & the other isn't.

              ??
              Tum Karbala kay baad bhee Syed-Sajjad a.s. ho
              Koi or hota tou khatha Khuda koi nahin hai

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by little human:


                I thought kay if two party of muslims fight that one is haq & the other isn't.

                ??
                or it cud be that neither one of them is on haq....
                or that both r fighting over different interpretations of the same thing....
                Both Halal & Haram r evident but between them r doubtful things, most ppl have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himself from suspicious things saves his religion & honor, & whoever indulges in suspicious things indulges in Haram.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by bao bihari:
                  i think the issue has been discussed some months back ....
                  http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showt...hreadid=134436

                  Comment


                    #10
                    As per your following post Khalafat is important, because you can’t implement Islam without Khalafat.

                    bao bihari posted 11-22-2003 12:23 PM the new empire of islam ...... now is must
                    brain washed goray (brown) ungraze.......if not khilafah then how ll u implement islam
                    ]bao bihari wrote: It depends on the situation ..some time both sides are shaheeds....i-e when there is difference of ijtihad .....like in war of jammal ...
                    ]bao bihari posted 01-07-2004 01:28 AM
                    1-Muslims against Muslims
                    It is not definate that when 2 muslims fight who is shaheed ...or if both r not shaheed or if both r shaheed...

                    A-If one country(muslims though) action is aginst the benefit of ummah then i think the other country which is fighting for the benefit for the ummah then the second country men r shahhed....

                    B-If both r fighting for reasons other then islam ....both r not..

                    C-If both islamic countries/groups r fighting for islam according to thier ijtihad then both r shahhed as was the case in JAMMAL and SUFFAIN war....
                    Your point C contradicts with point A. Look at point A. In that case who will decide that one country’s actions are against the benefits of Ummah and other’s are not. Those actions of both countries can be Ijtihad of both countries separately. The one who is deciding he is doing Injtihad as you mentioned in point C.

                    ]bao bihari posted 01-19-2004 01:19 AM
                    just to add ......sahbah are not masoom ...but they are mahfooz from khatta.......they will repent quickly if they do some thing bad.......
                    How would you justify Ijtihad? When you have clear instructions available from Quran and Sunnah in that perticular case/problem. Then who was responsible for the killings of thousands of people in short time period of 2 years in which they were doing bad (repenting quickly). What is the legal value of Ijtihad (license to justify mistakes) against Khalifa’s orders in presence of clear instructions from Quran and Sunnah?

                    Important Question for Bao Bihari : Which one has more value, Nas or Ijtihad ?

                    Hadith from Shahi Bukhari.
                    Vol 5, Book 57. Companions Of The Prophet. Hadith 116.
                    Narrated By Abu Wail : When 'Ali sent 'Ammar and Al-Hasan to (the people of) Kufa to urge them to fight, 'Ammar addressed them saying, "I know that she (i.e. 'Aisha) is the wife of the Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter (world to come), but Allah has put you to test, whether you will follow Him (i.e. Allah) or her."


                    Brother its up to you to decide with the help of your Eeman. Who will be Shaheed? Yazidies says their people who died in battles were Shaheed, and Hussaini says their people who died in battles were Shaheed.

                    But you can certainly get rid of these problems like pigeon closes his eyes by misusing the term Ijtihad


                    Brother to cope with these problems; you must have to find the Nas. No other solution to these problems for Muslim Ummah.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by inuit:

                      Yazidies says their people who died in battles were Shaheed, and Hussaini says their people who died in battles were Shaheed.
                      who r yazidis????
                      and who r hussainis????

                      new sects that i dont know of....
                      Both Halal & Haram r evident but between them r doubtful things, most ppl have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himself from suspicious things saves his religion & honor, & whoever indulges in suspicious things indulges in Haram.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by armughal:
                        who r yazidis????
                        and who r hussainis????
                        new sects that i dont know of....
                        How quick you are, in labeling these references as names of sects and pretending that I used it in that sense. If you keep continually doing this, then you would make sects on each Ayat of Quran.

                        The following are just references not the names of sects used in Quran. Would you consider them as sects?

                        Huq
                        Batal
                        Hizbula,
                        Hizbusatan
                        Tasakaroon
                        Muflahoon,
                        Etc etc

                        You could not find any answer to my post; decided this could be good to say; at least…. at least… his post should be dump in somewhere deep, to hide it from other people to read. After making a post you felt light hearted and satisfied, thought you have done your work which was assigned by some e**l forces.

                        Actually the problem is; you have to refute anyway; whatever the logic is, correct or incorrect.

                        Why is it so? Actually you are feeling pain because to describe an evil character; I used the word Yazid. You could not control yourself.

                        bao bihari: ! People asks where are Yazidies at this time. You can find easily. I usually say that Sunni religions is in great trouble at this point of time in history. Sunnies who love to be Hussainis; must be careful from these people. They covered their faces and labeled as Muslims; True interpreter of Islam. Just see around yourself. These people are entering into Sunnies and slow poisoning it. You must need a Mujadad or personality like that at this time. May Allah Bless you.

                        Wasalam!

                        Comment

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