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    #16
    I don't know why I even have to argue this...but ask one of the older military men...they will tell you how close nehru had alligned himself to China.... but somehow on the trip to china suharwardi convinced them otherwise...the relationship started then..... after suharwardi every successive Pak leader has continued that relationship....and time has always made it reach new goals..... I don't know why Bhutto seems always to get credit for stuff he didn't do...

    Comment


      #17
      yar suhr. might have initiated it but he wasnt the architect of the china policies for pak... Bhutto ki yehi tu aik sahee achievement hai, and btw, all of this happened during the time of Bhutto being a foriegn minister under Ayub!! Take for instance the permission granted to PIA for being the only non-communist airliner to be allowed to operate in china!!! Im not saying Hussain Shaheed Suhr. was not a good leader, infact he was also amongst the leaders who were in the Pak bandwagon and were sincere to the nation.

      Comment


        #18
        Posted by Abdali:
        So BB will be back and you never know if Pak will survive one more term of plunder and looting.
        ---------------------------------------------

        Well, as i said to you before, it will be no diff than the present govt, in terms of progress.

        Her terms were very short, so you never know if she has a proper term, and with her dismissal a bigger danger if she acts corruptly again, she may have learned some lessons and do some good.

        I just wish someone would 'take out' Zardari.
        After all HE was called Mr.10%, she did not have the rep of corruption he caused to be attached to her govt.

        And i don't know if she controls him, or the other way around.

        But with him it is no use having her back, I agree on that. May be no use even if he was gone, but this is just a theory of mine, seeing as many predict PPP will win the elctions, we should think about this.

        [This message has been edited by RealDeal (edited May 18, 2002).]

        [This message has been edited by RealDeal (edited May 18, 2002).]

        Comment


          #19
          Well, as i said to you before, it will be no diff than the present govt, in terms of progress.

          I think given the circumstances when he took over he has not done bad.

          Her terms were very short, so you never know if she has a proper term, and with her dismissal a bigger danger if she acts corruptly again, she may have learned some lessons and do some good.
          I just wish someone would 'take out' Zardari.
          After all HE was called Mr.10%, she did not have the rep of corruption he caused to be attached to her govt.
          And i don't know if she controls him, or the other way around.


          The bottom line is when you know her govt. was corrupt and you know she will be back after the election you still ask for elections. What does that means, it means you are supporting her.

          P.S: I think we must forget elections and go with GodFathers theory... and make me the Khilafa..

          [This message has been edited by Abdali (edited May 18, 2002).]

          Comment


            #20
            interesting point, i must say, I never thought about it like that.

            Well, i'll just say I don't know she will be back, it is my opinion and of many others. And many also say she won't be allowed to win.

            And if you remember my posts about elections I was thinking about the medium to long term positive effect it will have on Pak, not the short term, where i have said everyone is the same.

            Comment


              #21
              P.S: I think we must forget elections and go with GodFathers theory... and make me the Khilafa..

              make the head of the Khaifa someone who drinks?!!...well....why not they all do anyways!

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by RealDeal:
                interesting point, i must say, I never thought about it like that.

                Well, i'll just say I don't know she will be back, it is my opinion and of many others. And many also say she won't be allowed to win.

                And if you remember my posts about elections I was thinking about the medium to long term positive effect it will have on Pak, not the short term, where i have said everyone is the same.
                You want to bet she is the next candidate... With leaders like BB & NS you can forget about democracy and start thinking about how to save guard your wealth,health and survival. Exactly for people like BB, NS & Mr. 10 percent I have changed my mind moving back to pak. Can you blame none Pakistanis for not investing in Pak....

                BTW My younger brother personally knows Mr. 10 percent and what ever Mr. 10 percent did was with BBs blessing.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Abdali:
                  You want to bet she is the next candidate... With leaders like BB & NS you can forget about democracy and start thinking about how to save guard your wealth,health and survival. Exactly for people like BB, NS & Mr. 10 percent I have changed my mind moving back to pak. Can you blame none Pakistanis for not investing in Pak....

                  BTW My younger brother personally knows Mr. 10 percent and what ever Mr. 10 percent did was with BBs blessing.
                  Well i don't think AZ would say 'BB lets me take bribes' to your bro, so I don't think
                  that's enough to go on. Either way its just a theory of mine, rumours of him beating her up makes you think.

                  As for investment in Pak, no one is investing in Pak with this govt either. In fact as I posted earlier investment is lower inder Mush than EVER under BB or NS.

                  Have a read of this clip from an article.
                  http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm

                  So far, the general has yet to exhibit the political will to take on the zealots, and here he can study the methods used by General Babar, Benazir Bhutto's interior minister when he set out to crush the MQM's militant wing.

                  Despite the lamentable human rights violations that undoubtedly took place, Karachi was rid of the daily violence. Whatever we may say about her now, the fact is that she showed more gumption and staying power in dealing with this menace than any of her successors, including the ones in uniform. Now that the government is negotiating with the MQM, my businessmen friends report that they are getting calls demanding protection money or bhatta again.



                  [This message has been edited by RealDeal (edited May 18, 2002).]

                  Comment


                    #24
                    [http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm

                    posted last two-thirds of the article. the relevant part. 'night of thr long knives'
                    refers to when Army took over. by an ex Army officer.
                    http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm

                    My contemporaries

                    Can any of them or indeed anyone else from the long list of my military colleagues say with any honesty that the country today is in good shape or that it is marching to a brave new future? Let us have a proper measure of time. Two or three years in the life of any country - whether here, Nazi Germany or FDR's America - is pretty long, certainly long enough to mark the difference between success and failure.

                    In two years Roosevelt had established the outlines of his New Deal and turned America's back on the Great Depression. In two years Hitler (a politically incorrect example but relevant nonetheless) had turned Germany around, reviving its economy, repudiating the Treaty of Versailles and restoring Germany's prestige as a great power (that he took a wrong turning thereafter is a different story). Britain stood alone after the fall of France in 1940 but in that dark hour Churchill lifted his countrymen's spirits when he became prime minister. This is what leadership is about: making a difference when it matters.
                    Rhetoric aside, what has military leadership achieved since the Night of the Long Knives? As a country we are as much at sea now as we were then, the roll-call of failure and of opportunities wasted being dismal and long.


                    The army command has too much on its plate. The intelligence agencies are distracted between the competing pulls of gathering intelligence and carrying out political intrigue.The state of law and order, the first priority of an authoritarian government, is abysmal, the agencies of the state helpless before the rising tide of lawlessness and terror. NADRA, a military white elephant, can neither issue identity cards nor make a population or voting list which is error-free. WAPDA is in the red. So is the national carrier, PIA, and Pakistan Steel.

                    In a dictatorship the trains are supposed to run on time, trains in this case being a metaphor for good order and discipline. But if anything, life has become more chaotic in these two and a half years. Which is not to say Nawaz Sharif or Benazir were the heralds of a Golden Age. But then the Night of the Long Knives was supposed to make a difference. Indeed, the promise of making a difference was its sole justification. The chattering classes, duped as so often before, flocked to the military's standard fully convinced that the age of miracles was finally at hand.

                    Long after the gathering evidence pointed to a different conclusion - to ineptitude and clumsiness in handling even ordinary matters - the chattering classes clung to their belief, hailing Musharraf as messiah, redeemer and Ataturk rolled into one. It had to take the referendum to strip the scales from their eyes and make even the general's most ardent admirers sit up and take notice of the things happening around them.

                    Full-fledged banana status is about the only thing we have convincingly achieved. But again we miscalculated. By signing up for loyal service in Afghanistan we thought we were beating India to the draw and leaving it behind in the calculus of American favour. But far from America putting any pressure on India to lay off and withdraw its troops from our border, it is Pakistan which is read lectures on restraint and responsible behaviour. Indeed, it almost seems as if heightened tension with India - short of an actual flare-up - is a pistol pointed at Pakistan's head to keep it in line and ensure that its anti-Al Qaeda fervour does not flag.

                    The IRA in Britain, Basque separatists in Spain: other countries have faced far more sustained campaigns of terrorism than Pakistan. But even when very serious incidents have taken place in those countries, no one has accused them of being unsafe for travel or investment. Two or three terrorist incidents in Pakistan and it appears as if everything is about to cave in or fall apart. Why? Because with our banana politics and the absence of institutional rule our country looks fragile and vulnerable. Nothing sticks out more like a sore thumb in this day and age than a government dressed in military uniform.

                    This, baldly stated, is the problem facing my generation: how to come round to the realization that even with the best intentions in the world the Pakistan army is simply not equipped to play a political role or give the country a political lead. Do we want a future brighter than Burma's or Indonesia's? If we do, we have to do some urgent rethinking because, taking heed from the lessons of the past, the course we are embarked on is another prescription for disaster.


                    [This message has been edited by RealDeal (edited May 18, 2002).]

                    [This message has been edited by RealDeal (edited May 18, 2002).]

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by RealDeal:
                      Well i don't think AZ would say 'BB lets me take bribes' to your bro, so I don't think
                      that's enough to go on. Either way its just a theory of mine, rumours of her beating her up makes you think.

                      As for investment in Pak, no one is investing in Pak with this govt either. In fact as I posted earlier investment is lower inder Mush than EVER under BB or NS.

                      Have a read of this clip from an article.
                      http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm

                      So far, the general has yet to exhibit the political will to take on the zealots, and here he can study the methods used by General Babar, Benazir Bhutto's interior minister when he set out to crush the MQM's militant wing.

                      Despite the lamentable human rights violations that undoubtedly took place, Karachi was rid of the daily violence. Whatever we may say about her now, the fact is that she showed more gumption and staying power in dealing with this menace than any of her successors, including the ones in uniform. Now that the government is negotiating with the MQM, my businessmen friends report that they are getting calls demanding protection money or bhatta again.

                      Are you saying that she brought calm to Karachi??.... every thing else happens only with the blessing of the army how the hell did this escaped you. You can list all her good deeds but they don't out weigh her dark side she will even put you the Darth Vader to shame.

                      But the bottome line is are we as a nation too dumb to bring back teh same crooks over and over again... Don't we have any leaders....

                      P.s: Don't ever quote Ayaz Amir again. Any one else will be accepted. I have even rejected this SOB when he wrote pro pak articles. I use to have two of his articles contradict each other. In one he is criticizing Jihadi/Kashmir policy when Mushrraf rounded up 2000 jihadis he criticized that too.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by RealDeal:
                        P.S: I think we must forget elections and go with GodFathers theory... and make me the Khilafa..

                        make the head of the Khaifa someone who drinks?!!...well....why not they all do anyways!

                        If you make me your Khilafa I will give you the post of amir of Bikinis .

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Abdali:
                          Are you saying that she brought calm to Karachi??.... every thing else happens only with the blessing of the army how the hell did this escaped you. You can list all her good deeds but they don't out weigh her dark side she will even put you the Darth Vader to shame.

                          But the bottome line is are we as a nation too dumb to bring back teh same crooks over and over again... Don't we have any leaders....

                          P.s: Don't ever quote Ayaz Amir again. Any one else will be accepted. I have even rejected this SOB when he wrote pro pak articles. I use to have two of his articles contradict each other. In one he is criticizing Jihadi/Kashmir policy when Mushrraf rounded up 2000 jihadis he criticized that too.
                          I suspect you don't like Amir because he doesn't support Army rule. Don't know about the contradiction you're talking about, but he is one of the most famous and respected journalists in Pak.

                          As for the Karachi op, of course it was with Army approval! don't know how much you know/remember about those days, but the Army's creation, the MQM had grown out of control and was killing and torturing Military personnel (remember examples like Maj.Kaleem?).

                          It was so bad that Military people took their special plates off their cars and started growing their hair!

                          Point is Army tried in Op Clean Up and NS tried but they couldn't do what BB did!
                          Leaving her corruption aside for a moment, if it wasn't for BB Karachi would not be a part of Pak anymore. Give credit where credit is due!

                          And we can see how Mush is in an alliance with these same MQM people!

                          And yes we do have good leaders, but at this moment in time corruption in Pak is institutionalized, so it will take a period of proper and stable democracy for 'the people'to bring them to the fore.



                          [This message has been edited by RealDeal (edited May 18, 2002).]

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by RealDeal:
                            I suspect you don't like Amir because he doesn't support Army rule. Don't know about the contradiction you're talking about, but he is one of the most famous and respected journalists in Pak.

                            As for the Karagil op, of course it was with Army approval! don't know how much you know/remember about those days, but the Army's creation, the MQM had grown out of control and was killing and torturing Military personnel (remember examples like Maj.Kaleem?).

                            It was so bad that Military people took their special plates off their cars and started growing their hair!

                            Point is Army tried in Op Clean Up and NS tried but they couldn't do what BB did!
                            Leaving her corruption aside for a moment, if it wasn't for BB Karachi would not be a part of Pak anymore. Give credit where credit is due!

                            And we can see how Mush is in an alliance with these same MQM people!

                            And yes we do have good leaders, but at this moment in time corruption in Pak is institutionalized, so it will take a period of proper and stable democracy for 'the people'to bring them to the fore.

                            Realdeal u don't know what u are talking about... Army could not clean karachi but BB did!! with what? And yeah sure stable democracy of BB haha... Please don't humor me as I am busy enjoying my evening.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Abdali:
                              Realdeal u don't know what u are talking about... Army could not clean karachi but BB did!! with what? And yeah sure stable democracy of BB haha... Please don't humor me as I am busy enjoying my evening.
                              Two points. First I really think you should read what I say properly if you are going to reply to it. Right now it seems to be going in one ear and out the other.

                              I never said BB ws the solution, I have repeated this MANY times. I only put forward one THEORY, and that was it, a simple theory!
                              a what if?

                              Secondly, if you do not believe that BB really saved Karachi you should read about that period. That was a undeclared war of seperation and BB dealt with the MQM better than anyone previously.

                              The article I posted backs me up on this ..and the writer is not Mr.Amir!

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by RealDeal:
                                Two points. First I really think you should read what I say properly if you are going to reply to it. Right now it seems to be going in one ear and out the other.

                                I never said BB ws the solution, I have repeated this MANY times. I only put forward one THEORY, and that was it, a simple theory!
                                a what if?

                                Secondly, if you do not believe that BB really saved Karachi you should read about that period. That was a undeclared war of seperation and BB dealt with the MQM better than anyone previously.

                                The article I posted backs me up on this ..and the writer is not Mr.Amir!
                                I know you also believe Army killed Liaqat cannot argue with that... Beside if you believe BB saved Karachi then tough and ironic coz blind hatred of one and love of the other you ignore facts. Aslo when ppl like you crow democracy democracy knowing fare well it will be the same crook in the office again then you know exactly who you are supporting.


                                P.S. trust me unlike you I read each and every word you write.

                                Comment

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