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What should be done about the ISI?

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    What should be done about the ISI?

    It is quite evident to me, that ISI needs to be downsized, professionalized, and beaten into submission to serve the people of Pakistan rather then some obscure idealogical interests or personal agendas.

    Can Musharraf accomplish this enourmous task, and if so how? And what if he fails? Will ISI continue to run Pakistan's domestic and foriegn policy? A policy that has resulted in the murders of thousands of Pakistanis btw.

    How blameless is the ISI?

    [This message has been edited by sabah (edited April 02, 2002).]

    Great Article Faraz!

    I agree with you.

    The ISI needs to be sized down but you are missing the big picture.

    The ISI is a tool of the Army. Whatever the Army wants the ISI does. Now some people might have gotten out of control but the officers of ISI are still loyal and follow orders.

    It is the military establishment of Paksitan that needs to get out of politics and government.

    ISI is only the instrument.


      You are correct that ISI is only part of the probelm. The truth is that the military establishment and it's puppets force feeds the Pakistani public with a lot of propoganda, and ideaological BS.

      All this anti-Hindu, pro-Islamist mindset is bred in a structure of intolerance and non-critical right-wing thinking in the Army.

      You remove that, and ISI and indeed Pakistani politcians will reform themselves.

      Another article on the subject.

      Pak army’s research and analysis is weak

      [This message has been edited by sabah (edited April 02, 2002).]


        Originally posted by Faraz Mir:
        You are correct that ISI is only part of the probelm. The truth is that the military establishment and it's puppets force feeds the Pakistani public with a lot of propoganda, and ideaological BS.

        All this anti-Hindu, pro-Islamist mindset is bred in a structure of intolerance and non-critical right-wing thinking in the Army.

        You remove that, and ISI and indeed Pakistani politcians will reform themselves.

        Another article on the subject.

        Pak army’s research and analysis is weak

        [This message has been edited by sabah (edited April 02, 2002).]
        well said!


          The Army and ISI should stop considering themselves above the Law.

          I dont know why but they are for our protection from enemy not to scare us and show us they can do anything they like and no body can ask them,

          in Lahore a captian can invade a Police station with army in his unit and kidnapped the policemen. just to teach them lesson why did they stop him for routine checking.

          no law on earth allows that. but army allows it to get anything do whatever they want to .. its just a very small example how army thinks about civillian people and institutions.

          End is Begining!
          پاکستان پاکستان



            Fraz Mir and Talwar

            I agree.

            The thing is that if any institution is unaccountable in any country and if it has the power to screw ppl's lives, it always will. Be it Supreme court, politiican, army, or burecuacracy. In pakistan, all the stress is on politicians, and burecuracry. The fact of the matter is that both of these institutions get the bad word more than they deserve just because no one has the guts to say anything against army or ISI.

            And this is where the utility of ISI comes in. It is used as punching bag for army. Army says ISI is run by civilians, so it distances itself from ISI when the oush comes to shove. On the other hand, not many ppl can criticise ISI, what to talk about army. Even indepedentent papers like always use the euphemism of 'secreat agencies', ISI, etc to criticise army. So u see, it is win-win situation for GHQ.


              ISI is refined format of Pakistan Police. Both can get away with any heinous crime committed against Pakistani citizens. Since Pakistani judicial system is ‘Bikau’, discriminating, incompetent, inefficient and ineffective whenever situation demands to give historical impartial decisions, it has always been subservient to both the agencies. Both agencies are legacy or followers of colonial rule. Though during colonial rule, the color and race dominated but people in theses two organizations born from local wombs, suddenly become superior and above the law and treat fellow citizens as piece of $hit.

              If Musharraf is sincere in his effort, he should introduce radical and quick reforms in both the organizations as they enjoy enormous powers which can not be challenged (lack of democratic institutions) in any court of Pakistan. I would suggest he should start disbanding and complete overhauling of both as these are the 95% cause of evils in Pakistan, made them subservient to people of Pakistan and justice system (which also require complete overhauling).



                ISI Rulez!

                *Take Your Best Shot At Me*


                  Another meeting of the "I-have-nothing-better-to-do-so-i-will-curse-punjabis-and-pakistan-army-and-ISI" club.



                    Akif, this is NOT Punjabi bashing on my part. I do not believe in bashing anyone on the basis of ethnicity. Period.

                    But I also know the truth about the Army and the ways it has ruined Pakistan. And it is also not a secret that Army has large number of Punjabi officers and generals.

                    So some people of minority provinces, who have to bear daily injustice of Pakistani system, will eventually put two and two together. Some my best friends are Punjabi, and they agree with me when I tell how the Army is ruined it for Pakistan including patriotic Punjabis by suppressing their own culture and language!


                      I know for a fact that there is no quota system for induction in the Pakistan army. So if there are more punjabis (which I dont know, and dont care), its merely out of coincidence, not because of some grand Punjabi conspiracy.

                      And did you know Gen. Musharraf is a muhajir? Did you know a large percentage of soldiers come from the NWFP as well?

                      The fact is, we allow personal prejudices to dictate our likes and dislikes, and that is the trap you have fallen into as well.

                      If this is not a punjabi bashing thread, then it wouldnt have included any mention of punjab or sindh whatosever, and you would have merely highlighted the 'wrongs committed by such and such person', rather than making it a point to single out punjabis from the lot. Lets get real.


                        Yes, there is no quota system, so what?!!
                        Yes there are Pathan and Muhajir officers in the Army. When I see the truth I don't argue.

                        However the Army is filled by Punjabis, many, many more than their proportion in the Pak population, a quota system would actually stop this!

                        Lets deal with one example, Sindhis. There are virtually no Sindhis in the Army. Why?

                        Now don't tell me because they don't want to join! Pak Army is the best career one can make if you intend to stay in Pak. Money (rishwaat of course), power and being 'untouchable' are all benefits that one can't get in any other job.

                        If you are a Sindhi, you won't get into the Army, period. Simply because you are Sindhi.
                        The few tokens that do get in are treated like crap, again because they are Sindhi!
                        I am not some bitter old man, I am simply saying what is widely known.

                        I do not really expect you to believe me, I'm sure you won't unless you see it for yourself. Even then you will probably put it down to 'a few bad apples', and still refuse to accept the truth.

                        I guess I shouldn't really be surprised. For example, white people don't realize the discrimination black people face, although a least in the US a black man can become head of the Army!

                        People who discriminate don't dwell on that discrimination, those who are discriminated against do, for obvious reasons.

                        I am not saying you personally, or anyone else on this board is committing that discrimination, but the fact is that this deep discrimination is a big part of Pak.

                        Ignore it or deny it if you want, but it is there, and sooner or later it will destroy Pak! The precedent has already been set in '71!


                          There is a strong Economic case for having the status quo in Pak army.

                          Junior / Mid Rank officers (2nd Lt - Lt. Col)are very poorly paid. Even a Colonel has a take Home pay of about US$ 270 / month. Very few of them end up on lucrative postings / secondments like Rangers, FC, Levies, Coast Guards, Anti-Narcotics etc. Most of the guys on operational assignments have'nt made a "killing" by the 45-48 age bracket.

                          Just imagine you are a 45 year old Colonel who has had the right "jack" in the MS Branch Board - promoted as a One-Star General (Brigadier). Your take home pay will nudge around $ 370 now - but you will be entitled to One prime residential plot with a market value of RS 6-7 Million. Sell half of it and build a house - presto - your "makaan" issue is laid to rest. This is why we have an estmated 450 Brigadiers (In 1971 we had less than 60).

                          By now, your eyes have opened up to the world. You got to have your 2 daughters married (cool RS 3 M) and look for a post retirement income - so you begin your "Maar Dhar" on the garrison level.

                          This is the time for you to begin investing in "Social Netwroking". In Zia's draconian time you had to say your prayers Ba-jamaat and buy yourself a Gold Kit. These days the demand is for Black Label Tea and .... your wife got to "cooperate" to link up with Mr. Right in the Board.

                          Assuming you play your cards right - you will be promoted to MG. There are an estimated 130 of them (31 in 1971).

                          Its time to plan sending your two sons to a US school. That will set you back by about $ 220,000. Your $ 400 paycheck wont do it. But as MG your "span of action" is vastly expanded.

                          From now on its all political - you got to shine in the limelight - the "Chief" must notice you. You got to cultivate relations with the US or other Western Missions to put a good word for you - perhaps these days a deployment on the Afghan Border will help. Prove yourself a committed anti-Fundo and the next Rank (Lt. Gen) may not be that far. These days we have 33 Lt. Gens (only 4 in 1971).

                          A short stint as a Corps Commander (in reality Crore Commander) should give you enough cash to realize all the childhood fantasies. No, I am not talking of the princely salary of $ 650 .... the real action will be More Plots, Cuts in Defense Deals, Raw Gory action in the Cantonment Boards. AND dont worry about the kids - scholarships will be arranged through mysterious sources.

                          Dont bother yourself with further promotions, COAS is a Lottery Ticket - and other 4-Star Generals are on the "Khudday Line" anyways.

                          AND - a word of advice - in all your career progression an Actual War Like operation is a strict taboo. Dont be too "jazbati" about actually fighting the enemy. There is a chance yuou may get killed in action - or worse, you will never make it past Brigadier. Ever heard a real General getting killed on the front since 1947.


                            Interesting Talwar.

                            But I have to say army men make loads(especially in martial law) much before they become 'crore commander'-that's a good one!

                            Nobody in Pak govt jobs counts his earnings from his official salary. Colonel's live very comfortable lives. By the time they retire they have enough to send their kids abroad and live life in Pak or abroad very comfortably.

                            Just ONE example,I know of a Colonel who moved to the US a little while ago. He bought a house, is the sending kids to college, and as a job/investment has bought THREE Burger King franchises! All this must have at LEAST cost him a million US dollars!

                            And the really, really sad part is, he is not alone. Army men, the people who run our country are making tons, sad, but true!


                              Talwar, whatever BS you just uttered above is true for any career path. Not every tom dick and harry becomes CEO of IBM, and not every soldier ends up COAS.

                              And another thing. When talking about Pakistan, learn to speak in Rupees. $270/month was just your way of proving this idiotic thinking. Rs 16k is not a bad pay for starters. Even qualified computer engineers start at Rs 10k per month in Pakistan. They get increments of thousands every month and end up earning Rs 100k a year, and this same soldier is paid Rs 25k because Pakistan cannot afford to pay them the "market rate". They get plots to compensate for lack of pay and all you get is jealousy. Sheesh!

                              And your earlier post is even lamer. If Sindhis don't want to join Army than no one can force them. Just because you are lazy and can not take the rigors of military life, be thankful that others, more dedicated than you are, are willing to die for your sorry arses on the borders of Siachen, Kashmir, Punjab and Sindh. Try to compensate a dead soldier in money terms and then open your mouth about "economic logic for status quo". Ungrateful lot!