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  • scarface1
    replied
    Pristine,

    I thought I was clear.

    The ruling system and the structure of the Islamic state is not present in Afghanistan.

    Even for them to say the Islamic 'emirate' of 'Afghanistan' shows they have not adopted the system that the Prophet(saw) established in Medina.

    Some time ago Youngbrat presented an article where the Taleban said that Mullah Umar would be removed if he makes a mistake. If Mullah Umar was Ameer Ul Mumineen i.e. the khaleef, then he could only be removed if he does kufr openly.

    They have been unsuccessful in their attempts at getting a seat on the UN which is haram anyway since to be on the UN a country must recognise the sovereignty of other nations but in Islam we only recognise the sovereignty of Allah(swt).

    It is not khilafah and even the Taleban and their supporters do not claim it is khilafah. They only claim that it is closest to Islam. But either it is Islam or its not and its not.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pristine
    replied
    >>If this is adopted in Afghanistan then any Muslim who denies the Islamic authority will be sinful and treated as a baaghi.

    Lets not worry about other muslims. Lets talk about you and your friends in HT. Ok? Because you and your ilk jump into every discussion with the same broken gramophone words that all muslims in the world are sinful as they don't have a khalifa. And all muslim states are guilty as sin and they will lead us to hellfire, blah blah. I am, therefore, seriously worried about you folks, much more than I will ever be worried about the rest of the muslims.

    Based on these criteria, whatever these are, do elaborate why you feel the Ameer-ul-Momineen Mullah Muhammad Omar and his government in Afghanistan fail to fulfill the requirements of sharia.

    As someone said... you guys can talk the talk. Lets see if you can walk the walk too.


    [This message has been edited by Pristine (edited September 26, 2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • scarface1
    replied
    mAd_ScIeNtIsT,

    I've had this discussion with you before.

    Ameer Ul Mumineen means Leader of the believers. ALL the believers whether in the Arctic or on Mars not just the believers in Afghanistan.

    Pristine,

    In the Pakistani constitution the same claim is made. We need to compare the system with the Islamic state established by the Prophet(saw) and if it doesn't match then they can't claim to be Islamic.

    For anyone to say we follow Qur'an and Sunnah is just too vague.

    We need to go into detail.

    The ruling system in Islam is founded upon 4 principles:

    1. Sovereignty belongs to the Shar'a and not to the people.
    2. Authority belongs to the Ummah.
    3. The appointment of one khalifa is an obligation upon all Muslims.
    4. Only the khalifa has the right to adopt the ahkam shari'a. Therefore he enacts the constitution and laws.

    And the structure of the Islamic state is:

    1. The Khalifah.
    2. Mu'awin Tafweedh (the deputed assistant).
    3. Mu'awin Tanfeedh (the executive assistant).
    4. The Amir of Jihad
    5. Al Qada (Judiciary)
    6. Wulah (governors)
    7. Masalihud Dawlah (Administrative apparatus)
    8. Majlis al-Ummah (Assembly of the Ummah)

    If this is adopted in Afghanistan then any Muslim who denies the Islamic authority will be sinful and treated as a baaghi.

    Most people do not know the structure of the Islamic state so they only see that Muslims are in charge so it must be Islamic. This is wrong. This is the same as thinking that if a Muslim prays then he can pray any way he wants to and the prayer will be valid.

    Again it's not a certain personality that we want to be khaleef, Its the Islamic system that must be reestablished.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pristine
    replied
    Originally posted by scarface:
    Pristine,

    However in Afghanistan the ruling system is not Islamic. Even Mullah Umar doesn't claim to be Ameer ul Mumineen or to have established khilafah.

    So how can we give bayah to someone who is not the khaleef?

    Many people will disagree with you on the first point. In fact the supporters of Talibaan will argue that their government is based on nothing but Sharia, and that is why so many people are against them.

    On your second point, you obviously need to do more research. Not only does Mullah Mohammad Omar call himself the Ameer-ul-Momineen, the name of Afghanistan has also been changed to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.

    On your third point, you need to be clear on how you will recognize a khalifa. A khalifa won't have the word 'khalifa' written on his forehead. He doesn't necessarily have to live in a palace in Riyadh or Cairo or Baghdad. Does he? So, broaden your horizon and check out if Mullah Mohammad Omer qualifies in all the characterisitics of a khalifa, and if he does, it is obligatory on you and the entire Hizb-ut-Tehrir to go and take baiyyat on his hand.

    Ciao!

    Leave a comment:


  • ZZ
    replied
    Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT:
    Uhhh.... he does claim to be Ameer ul Muslimeen, though the Taliban say that it simply refers to the Muslims of Afghanistan.

    maybe something like amir-ul-wahabi-terrorist-sunni-pustoons-hell-bent-on-destroying-themselves.

    Leave a comment:


  • mAd_ScIeNtIsT
    replied
    Originally posted by scarface:
    Even Mullah Umar doesn't claim to be Ameer ul Mumineen or to have established khilafah.
    Uhhh.... he does claim to be Ameer ul Muslimeen, though the Taliban say that it simply refers to the Muslims of Afghanistan.

    Leave a comment:


  • scarface1
    replied
    Pristine,

    When we pray, we pray according to the Sunnah of the Prophet(saw) so when we rule we should also follow the Sunnah of the Prophet(saw) and we should follow the Prophet(saw) in all things because he(saw) is the best of examples for us. However in Afghanistan the ruling system is not Islamic. Even Mullah Umar doesn't claim to be Ameer ul Mumineen or to have established khilafah.

    So how can we give bayah to someone who is not the khaleef?

    Leave a comment:


  • mAd_ScIeNtIsT
    replied
    Abuhasib, look up the cause of the fourth death and you will find that it was a shopkeeper who had a heart attack when he was attacked by the mob.

    Given that the mob of protesters is already responsible for the death of one innocent Muslim, I would not be at all surprised if the 3 protesters who were shot were killed because they were trying to attack more innocent muslims.

    Leave a comment:


  • ustio
    replied
    Originally posted by abuhasib:
    Four muslims killed in Karachi, this is very serious development, it is not a time for us to fight, or for security to be told to quash the people, I pray worse is not to come



    ahhhh....four muslims!!!!
    u mean that u would not be sad if hindus or christians or ahmedians were killed?it is a shame on you Mr.........


    Leave a comment:


  • nomaan
    replied
    at times like these, we see that our religious parties are just hyprcrites. on one hand they preach the Greatness of Allah, the Glory of Islam, and the Example of the The Prophet (pbuh), and the next day they're on the streets disrupting the country by calling strikes, making threats,intimidating ppl who don't share their vision, and killing a few innocent people.

    no wonder we don't want these ppl running the country.

    [This message has been edited by nomaan (edited September 23, 2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • Pristine
    replied
    Pakistan is on top, because despite earnest efforts by mullahs and kuffar, in equal zealousness, we are still there.... more powerful than ever before. Our strength is Allah, and we don't need doomsday prophets like you to come out in the crisis and predict end of world for us.

    I think the Khilafah has been misunderstood

    For once you are absolutely right. My knowledge of the proposed khilafa system is based on the giga-bytes of cut-and-pastes which you and your friends in Hizb-ut-Tehrir have been posting on this board for a long time. You folks have twisted and grossly mis-represented both the importance and essence of Khilafa.

    And you never responded to my original question. In your search for khilafa, why don't you and the entire Hizb-ut-Tehrir go and take bayyet in the hands of Ameer-ul-Momineen, Mullah Muhammad Omar of Islami Emirate of Afghanistan? What is unislamic about him and his government?

    Leave a comment:


  • mm10
    replied
    i think pristine you waste your precious time on Abuhasib as i hardly read him, as he has the same rhetoric in every thread about HT and Khilafa.
    I praise your patience for tolerating his nonsensical nonsense.

    Leave a comment:


  • abuhasib
    replied
    It is not right to generalise, some of the people are protesting wrongly, and no one is defending that, but we should focus on why they are protesting, the focus should not be the shop keepers but the government as that is the one who is making the decisions they do not like. Most people are not idiots but maybe their direction could be better
    i.e increased discussion on the key areas
    The government is pro American and they are not going to change their minds without permission, therefore they are the root of the problem, and not just them but the system and order which makes trhem act like they do. See earlier comment for solution

    Leave a comment:


  • Hollywood
    replied
    96% of those morons who were out there were Afghans. I hope they enjoy their night in jail along with the rest of the homos who were out there.

    The shopkeeper who was murdered was a victim of these afghani terrorists pure and simple. They will get whats coming very very soon but I also hope the Govt uses this opportunity to flush out these sick losers who preach their own version of the Quran in these madrassas in Peshawar etc.

    I never wanted afghani refugees in my country in the first place. Now I hope they`re all thrown out.

    Their demonstrations were just as I expected. Small in number and the only way they could get attention was to turn to violence.

    Like I said, they should enjoy their nights in jail because I hope they stay there for a long long time.

    And Fazul Rehman better head to Afghanistan or he`ll get his butt kicked very soon.

    [This message has been edited by outlaw (edited September 22, 2001).]

    Leave a comment:


  • abuhasib
    replied
    You are right about police and army difference, respect has been for the army not for the police. However the army is going to have to protect this policy as well, and the ppl will lose their respect for them as well then.
    This is not good because the army is known to have strong Islamic emotions and tendencies in Pakistan more than any other muslim land, and they as well as the people in Pakistan will both needed in order to change Pakistans situation.
    I do not know where you family is from in Pakistan and from what social status they are from, but without a doubt the vast majority of people are against helping America in their crusade.
    The point of majority or minority is not the real issue here though, which is that we can not compromise Islam on this issue as many have already said.
    We would also be naive if we thought that America was not trying to achieve its own foreign policy interests under the pretext of fighting terrorism, as many people are now saying, do not expect America to disappear from our region in any short period of time. The gulf war gave them a green light and now they have another one.

    As far as Pakistan has had bigger problems before and has always come out on top. Here I have the biggest problem, it has indeed had major problems before, but when has it ever come out on top. We might be cosy ourselves where we are even our families may be, but for the vast majority within Pakistan they have never been out on top. They have never had a government which has sincerely fostered its affairs.
    Also the current problem is different from previous as this is internal strife, the enemy of the ppl is and will be as days go on their own government. Before our enemy (mainly India) was an external enemy which naturaly had the affect of rallying and uniting the people.
    If you study and think about the problem you will see the dangers, indeed every one around the world is already discussing them.

    The only solution for Pakistan and all of the Muslim lands is the Khilafah system, which will be capable and a practical solution for all human problems faced (poverty,military,education,cultur,economic) not over night but Islam does provide the correct detailed solutions.
    The khilafah is not a theocratic state but a human one, it will not misunderstand the difference between hadarah (culture) and Madaniyyah (civilisation,technology) as others have done which portrays their back wardness. It would seek to be a leader in every field as proven by the glorious Islamic history, we will utilise technology and develop it and a remarkable pace because we will have a vision of the world and not one confined within borders or confined by America and its policy.
    I think the Khilafah has been misunderstood, my advice, do not see it through the worlds current reality as it is a unique system, not democratic and not monarchical.

    Leave a comment:

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