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Is this a religous or political matter??

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    Is this a religous or political matter??

    Extract from a Pakistani Passport

    This is amazing.

    "iii) I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Quadiani to be an imposter Nabi and also consider his followers wh ether belonging to the Lahore or Quadiani group to be a Non-Muslim. "

    I am just a bit curious as to why is the Government of Pakistan is so concerned about the beliefs of a person "Mirza Ghulam Ahmed". I would like to read more about him and what is he preaching ? He must be saying something tht has got the Govt. Of Pakistan so worried.

    Can someone give me a link to an unbiased source from a western media who have no axe to grind.

    #2
    It's a religious thing.

    Comment


      #3
      Though I don't know much about this guy mirza, all I know is that he proclaimed himself as messenger of Allah(swt) (Nauozobillah), now who ever accepts it as true or real automatically becomes a non-muslim.
      There are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the end the sword will always be conquered by the spirit. --Napoleon Bonaparte

      Comment


        #4
        Religious.
        And i agree with it.

        ------------------
        Our's not to reason why,
        Our's but to do and die:
        You can't fix stupid. So might as well troll them!

        Comment


          #5
          Is this a recent ammendment?

          And yes, is there a reason as to why such importance is given to this 'sect', today?

          Comment


            #6
            well it should'nt be anyones business who wat is and certainly should'nt be on the passport... no matter who that person or his followers are ...
            how would some shia feel if sunni one day decide that all shia's are kafir ??

            or if the saudi wahabis decied that about all other sects?



            ------------------
            To do in life is to appreciate it. To live life is to lose it. I dont know what I am saying so I will stop saying it.

            Comment


              #7
              Also i just checked this not part of the passport.
              But part of the forum you have to fill out for the passport.
              It is not on the passport all.
              It has to deal with the clause that deals with the finailty of the Prophet {SAW}.

              Tahnaa is not part of a pakistani passport as you have stated.

              ------------------
              Our's not to reason why,
              Our's but to do and die:
              You can't fix stupid. So might as well troll them!

              Comment


                #8
                Sorry CM about that. yes it is int application fora passport. Now can I conclude from this that

                In Pakistan the Government decides who is a muslim and then issues a certificate by stating on the Passport that "this person is a muslim because he swears the following...etc."

                Are we proud of this interference in the personal beliefs for getting a travel document?

                Isn't this some kind of discrimination?

                Please guys this is not a Hindu/Muslim or India/Pakistan matter. I want an honest opinion. I feel sad for those who think differentlly in Pakistan and are forced to swear so that they stay in the good books of the government.

                [This message has been edited by Tanhaa (edited July 18, 2001).]

                Comment


                  #9
                  Clause were introduced so that anyone who does not sign such declation automatically becomes "Non-Muslim" by "LAW". I am still could not figure out if this decision was political or relegious. In short every sect has called other sects non-muslims so question is what is defination of "muslim".

                  ------------------
                  "Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Tanhaa:
                    In Pakistan the Government decides who is a muslim and then issues a certificate by stating on the Passport that "this person is a muslim because he swears the following...etc."

                    Are we proud of this interference in the personal beliefs for getting a travel document?

                    Isn't this some kind of discrimination?
                    I answered this in that other thread by durango as well. That was in response to indians, who dont know much about Pakistan....but our own folks should know better.

                    The focus behind this is to facilitate smooth travel during Hajj and Umra. As u all know, non-muslims are not to visit Mecca and Medina. Each and every person's ID/passport is checked at the entrance to these cities, whether during hajj season or out of season. So now if your passport had no mention of your religion, you would either be subjected to a long scrutiny, or would simply be turned back. How would you like to be turned back while you were standing there all decked up in Ihraam, ready for Umra? (no, merely donning a white sheet doesnt make u a muslim....so visual decisions are not acceptable.)

                    In order to avoid the above hassle, mention of a person's religion is almost imperative on his passport. And the Pak govt is simply making their best possible effort to ensure that only genuine cases are approved as muslims. They are not going into any minute details. All they are doing is using the very basic definition of being a muslim....ie, belief in the oneness of Allah SWT, and in the finality of Prophet SAW.

                    Now whats so controversial about that?

                    and to answer the initial question, its a religious+convenience issue.A


                    [This message has been edited by Akif (edited July 18, 2001).]

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Well said Akif.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I agree with you Akif Bhai that its convenient to mention your religion on the passport. I am questioning the method and Criteria of defining a muslim.

                        Has the Saudi Government defined the criteria as to who is a muslim? Or, are these conditions of Pakistani origin?

                        Will some Indian Muslims who go to Haj, please help and explain how they prove in Saudi Arabia that they are muslims. Does the Indian Passport or Application have a column called Religion?

                        Why not just have a column in the application where a person can write his religion without haveing to swear to an official statement??

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Well said akif.
                          And if i am correct, Tahnaa the indian passport also has a column saying the religion of the person.
                          Most Muslim nations and third world nations do.

                          ------------------
                          Our's not to reason why,
                          Our's but to do and die:
                          You can't fix stupid. So might as well troll them!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            CM bhai, I just checked the Indian Paspost site http://passport.nic.in/vspassport/passport.htm
                            and their application does not hve any mention of religion. So the question is still not answered.

                            1. How do muslims of India go to Haj and prove that they are muslims?

                            2. Who decided the criteria and definition of a muslim used by Pakistan Passport office? Is it Saudi Arabia or Govt. of Pakistan?

                            Having to sign that declaration, on a Passport application is so degrading and an intrusion into the private life of a citizen by the government. I am not hearing any outrage from this forum? Are we all happy about this situation?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Tanhaa:
                              1. How do muslims of India go to Haj and prove that they are muslims?

                              2. Who decided the criteria and definition of a muslim used by Pakistan Passport office? Is it Saudi Arabia or Govt. of Pakistan?
                              When you apply for an Umra or Hajj visa, you have to provide proof of being a muslim. Now if it is mentioned on your passport, it makes it easy for the consulate. If its not mentioned, then you have to provide some sort of proof, which though, is ignored in many cases.
                              However, what that results in is that when the consulate stamps a visa on your passport, they will write your name on the visa, and precede it with 'Muhammad', regardless of whether you use it as a prefix.

                              So for indians, their visas are imprinted with the travellers name preceded with 'Muhammad', which signifies them as muslims.

                              Regarding your second question, I dont know what the confusion is about. Its not as if the criteria mentioned is something out of the ordinary. What is the very first thing that you are taught as a Muslim? The first Kalima. Then we are taught about the finality of Prophet SAW. These being the two basic beliefs for Muslims, why would you question the contents of the passport form? The questions are a simple attempt to seperate 'fictitious' muslims from genuine ones. True, still its not foolproof, but they are doing whatever they can.

                              Rvikz....noones going any extra mile. Pak govt is doing what it has to do in order to ensure smooth transactions of the 100,000+ people that go for Hajj from Pakistan....and more importantly for the Saudi govt, who have to entertain 100,000+ people on a daily basis for Umra/work, and ~3 million people for Hajj on a yearly basis.

                              Managing such huge affairs, and that too so seamlessly is no joke. And here you are questioning one of the factors that makes the whole process seamless.

                              Comment

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