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Army in Pakistan - A love story of dictatorship and democracy

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    Army in Pakistan - A love story of dictatorship and democracy

    Since the independence of Pakistan, Army has been involved in the Govt. in one way or another.

    I think it has killed the spirit that could develop the democracy in our country.

    From Ayub Khan to Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and Zia ul Haq to Parvez Musharraf, I think from time to time we stopped democracy and it didn't get a chance to prosper.


    #2
    Yaar Khan, I am not a big fan of Zia and agree on the fact that the downfall off PAkistan started as soon as Zia became president. But even being a Jayalla forever I have realized that the democratic government of PPP was when Pakistan started to go to the way where it is right now. Nawaaz Shareef just helped more in doing so.

    I think on the other hand that General Pervaiz is doing his level best to revive our dead economy. And I say everybody has gotten a chance. We have no choice. I am not say that forget democracy all I am saying is lets just let it rest for a while so we can get back on track.

    As for Nawaaz government it was just in name, the MSF people used to think they were Gods Terrorizing colleges in the name of student politics. He messed the Judiciary system. He fired the president. And then try to influence the Army too....

    Is that what we call democracy?

    Comment


      #3
      <b>
      Democracy couldn't be defended logically, yet the saying of "necessary evil" still comes in favour of the system of government of the poeple, by the people and for the people. I do not like democracy, but I hate any other form of government. The most powerful and attractive feature of demoracy, despites all of its ills, is that it carries a self-correcting element within itself. But unfortunately our militarymen took it upon themselves to right any wrong. The ills of democracy could be cured only by more democracy. The remedy, by no means whatsoever, does not lay in anything else.

      </b>
      Reh gaya kaam hamaara hi baghawat likhna...

      Comment


        #4
        If people fear their goveranment,..then it is called Dictatorship,...
        If Governament fear from its people then that is democracy,.....
        Now tell me what we have,...and what must be done,....
        BTW,......good topic to discuss,......
        °º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`° ¤ø,¸°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ ºÂ°`°º¤ø,¸,¸¸,ø¤º °`°º¤ø,¸,¸¸,ø¤º° ºÂ¤Ã¸



        A Faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets.

        Comment


          #5
          I am not great fan of army either but I think they are better then politicians. Army should not stay in power for long because chances are that they themself become corrupt by system. Army leadership is very good deterent for Pakistan's enemies.

          People complain about army but no one complain about parties, years after years I see people from same family on party leadership.......no new faces why?



          ------------------
          "Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

          Comment


            #6
            Insaaniat,
            I agree with you to some extent.Army should come in and leave as quickly as possible.Sometime they don't have any choice, I know,..but leaving early in the interest of Pakistan.
            POLITICIAN ARE NOT CORRUPT,..........don't say that,...It's the people who elect them are corrupt.

            °º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`° ¤ø,¸°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ ºÂ°`°º¤ø,¸,¸¸,ø¤º °`°º¤ø,¸,¸¸,ø¤º° ºÂ¤Ã¸



            A Faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by TARIQ786USA:
              If people fear their goveranment,..then it is called Dictatorship,...
              If Governament fear from its people then that is democracy,.....
              Now tell me what we have,...and what must be done,....
              BTW,......good topic to discuss,......
              The word 'Democracy' has become a fashion to show how modern we have become. First of all like many have said before 'elections', 'secularism' and 'democracy' is a western philosophy which we are blindly trying to follow. The ground factors are totally different, that is why it is not successful here. I would also like to add that even in England it took 400 years to bring the semocracy which they are having. There was a constant tussle for power between the King, the Parliament and the Church. Ultimately it was Sir Oliver Cromwell who laid the foudations of present day English Democracy. Here is an extract from Brittanica on Oliver Cromwell:-

              "Cromwell, Oliver

              Military and political leader


              During 1643 Cromwell acquired a reputation both as a military organizer and a fighting man. From the very beginning he had insisted that the men who served on the parliamentarian side should be carefully chosen and properly trained, and he made it a point to find loyal and well-behaved men regardless of their religious beliefs or social status......"

              The lesson is that it took a military man to bring democracy in England.

              Comment


                #8
                Guys No, You have got it wrong. I haven't been in favour of the musical chair democracy nor the dictatorship but what I am trying to say is that do you think that the illusion that our politicians can't do anything was created by the Army to get support from people.

                If we look at our history then we would realise that some of our Prime Ministers were changed so quickly that our democracy had become a joke. Who was responsible for that? We might have heard good stories about Ayub Khan but was it good governance or a green revolution that had increased the production in the field of Agriculture throughout the world and we got the illusion that during that reign we had good governance. The elected government after Ayub Khan couldn't work. Although, political parties were blamed for the chaos but all of them have accepted that they had reached an agreement with ZAB's government. Bhutto had his own problems which we will discuss later. Zia ul Haq ruled us as for eleven years but yet we couldn't solve the problems. He was the only person who had a Golden chance to do whatever he could do but he didn't. I can accept that he was busy in Afghan War to save Pakistan but yet this golden era of Zia was golden mainly because we were heavily censored. We could only hear what we were told. We had Nawaz and BB and they were not given a chance properly (i.e. full 5 year terms) and people in Pakistan got so fed up that now they don't seems to care who comes and go. There is not that much passion about politics among Pakistanis in general which is a dangerous sign. It is like in the west people go to work and then to bar and they don't wanna know what is happening in parliament.

                All I can say to the present scenario is that we have a lot of hope with our chief executive and I hope that he doesn't turn out to be another player in the Musical Chair Game.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by khan_sahib:
                  but what I am trying to say is that do you think that the illusion that our politicians can't do anything was created by the Army to get support from people
                  Khan,
                  I dont think it like that. Unlike politicians the army do not have propaganda machinery or local offices in towns and cities to use as propaganda. It is people who are fed up of politicians.

                  If you remmber it was people who distribute sweets with joy when CE disolve the NS government.


                  ------------------
                  "Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

                  [This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited May 24, 2001).]

                  Comment


                    #10
                    propaganda machinery or local offices in towns and cities to use as propaganda.

                    Are they the only kind of propaganda machinery or can u not create a situation "somehow" when people start to hate things as they were?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Khan_Sahib,
                      First of All, Lets stop and analyze the whole issue:
                      1. What is army: A group of people trained to kill and fight against enemy.They know the language what they are taught during training, the language of Guns.
                      And they are very well discipline in tht regard too.They are straight forward and staright shooters.Politics is not one of their specialty. They are patriotic and loyal. But when it comes to Politics they are ignorant, for which we can't blame them.

                      2. An Army officer's education is equavalent to college 3rd year student. They graduate in one year time from PMA KAKUL( Abbottabad) During two years long course training.
                      Even in one year they don't go through all the required syllabus for 3rd year student in college.I know this because my cousins and uncles are seving Pakistan Armed forces now.
                      3. They get some extra experience and knowledge during their service. But still they can't compete educationally to any College graduate.
                      4. Now the politics requires, education, common sense and some diplomacy.Which an Army officer lacks.They fail miserably in state affairs, international affairs and any other problems you think of.When an army general becomes " Chief Executive " or Martial Law Administrator, then being the head of Govt, Now he is dealing with World. And in world there are so many brillaint minds around with whom we have to deal.Here we run into so many problems, for not knowing the international Politics ZIG_ZAGs,The other nation take advantage of their ignorance and we sign agreements and Make deals, which we as a nation regret later on. Also We lose our voice on international level, for not having elected leader.
                      5. Pakistan relies heavily on International Aids, such as from IMF, World Bank,Asian Bank and also from Islamic Bank.
                      In order to get aid, army generals have no experience or knowldge to deal with them, that's how we get into more troubles by accepting lending Banks conditions.And the whole nation suffers for their ignorance.
                      6. The after effects of Martial Law stays with us for like couple of years. All blunders committed by Army needs to be undone and here goes everything all over again in circles.

                      THOUGH WE HAVE LACK OF LEADERSHIP IN PAKISTAN, BUT STILL ARMY IS NOT SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM.

                      India is going through same problem, but you will never even hear about Army stepping in
                      or imposing Martial Law there.

                      This kind luxury only our Pakistani Army has, When they get bored, they come back with new promises and dreams and make the water more muddier than ever.

                      MAY GOD BLESS US ALL AND SHOW US THE RIGHT PATH.


                      [This message has been edited by TARIQ786USA (edited May 24, 2001).]

                      [This message has been edited by TARIQ786USA (edited May 24, 2001).]

                      [This message has been edited by TARIQ786USA (edited May 24, 2001).]
                      °º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`° ¤ø,¸°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ ºÂ°`°º¤ø,¸,¸¸,ø¤º °`°º¤ø,¸,¸¸,ø¤º° ºÂ¤Ã¸



                      A Faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Tariq,

                        I strongly disagree with you on "army officers have about average education of colleage gradute". Thing is army officers are not trained to sovle physics and maths equations but to fight. They get regularly get training on this subject and therefore the master this art.

                        I agree they may not trained to run the country but tell me how much is your average politician or mullahs are traiined........if you see many party memebers or leaders are not even passed their matirculation.thats why you see the chairs throwing to each other in national assembly sessions. NOW TELL ME CAN YOU TRUST THESE POLITICIANS TO RUN THE COUNTRY AND MAKE DECISIONS ON SENSITIVE ISSUES?? if you think we can then I will say army can do much better then these people. Although army officers are not masters or phds in subjects but majority are brilliant men who learn quickly and therefore can adjust themself to the duties given to them.

                        Army is not the best option for pakistan.......I agree but we dont have any choice since our political system has failed tp produce any good sincere leaders. Until we get good leaders army will be involved in pakistan.

                        ------------------
                        "Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

                        [This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited May 24, 2001).]

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Insaaniat,
                          I respect your dis-agreement with me,...if we start agreeing on everything, then there is no point for discussion here.
                          First of all, All armed forces deserve respect and full suport,no question about it.
                          About education,...they must be atleast Master of their field, if not then our country will be in Big trouble.
                          We don't expect them to solve our Math or Physics problem.But what my point f discussion is:

                          1. Army must focus on its duties and changing defence responsiblities.AYUB KHAN,YAHYA KHAN,ZIA-UL-HAQ times are gone after may28th, 1998.Being the Nuclear state, we are more vulnerable to destruction and instability.Because, Stable Pakistan is not in the best interset of WEST or any other country.

                          2. Comparing Mullah's or Politicians with Army is like, Comparing Donkeys with Horses.
                          But still it doesn't mean a horse should do the same as Donkeys do.( Donkeys for Politicians) and Horses for Army Officers.

                          3.I know, actually everyone here knows, we don't have sincere and honest leaders, Because we got burned by Greedy and foolish ones.
                          But it doesn't mean we should use that an excuse for Army. Still there are some good people left,If we can try them.

                          I know sometime crisis comes when Army has no choice to step in. But they must leave faster, soon after the elections are held.Staying in Power for longer period of time is not in the interset of Pakistan.It hurts us Internationally.

                          I agree with you on one thing about sensitive matters handled by Mullah's or Politicians who couldn't even Pass Matric.
                          But here I would disagree with you:

                          If they are elected by people, and people didn't care about their education, then we can't do anything.

                          Democarcy is not perfect, but better than Martial Law.And we had a taste of both. Who knows more than Pakistanis about both...

                          USA has just one constitution, we had like
                          2 or 3 since independance.India has one never changed.Same goes for other nations.

                          God bless Pakistan,....keep praying as I do.

                          °º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`° ¤ø,¸°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤ ºÂ°`°º¤ø,¸,¸¸,ø¤º °`°º¤ø,¸,¸¸,ø¤º° ºÂ¤Ã¸



                          A Faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Tariq,
                            I think you said many valid points cannot disagree with you.

                            ------------------
                            "Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

                            [This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited May 24, 2001).]

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