Pakistan Pros and Cons

[CM]

Ok I have 6 hours before my next class and since this place sees more fighting than actual political discussions, I have come up with this topic.
I want to discuss constructively the problems of Pakistan and how they can be solved if they can be solved at all. Anybody and everybody is welcome to post but not fights please, and the Indians are included as well but no racist stuff or pure nonsense.
Constructive criticism is welcome.

Pakistan has many problems which I have defined as follows:

1. Structural
A. Feudal System
B. Infrastructure
1. Roads
2. Dams
C. Public Utilities

2. Political
A. Parties
B. Corruption
C. Fundo's
D. Feudal System

3. Social
A. Education
B. Women rights
C. Islam and Minorities
D. Health Standards

4. Economic
A. Feudal System
B. Exports
C. FDI

As you can see the feudal system is what I see a major problem Economically, Politically Structurally and Socially.
This is one aspect where I agree with and admire Nehru's thinking and foresight. In India he abolished the feudal system and did so quickly and without major disruptions in the society.
This is not possible in Pakistan today.
If anyone dares take on the feudal system there would be serious and drastic consequences.
So here is what I think on the future of Pakistan and the Feudal system.

The feudal system is blight on the name of Islam, humanity and Pakistan.
It thrives on and promotes slavery, bondage labor, prostitution to name a few vices.
The Feudal lords amass wealth at the expense of the workers who get nothing.
However the Feudal system is a double-edged sword.
It gives a small number of the population a great deal of power and wealth that leads to economic inequalities and other problems.
It leads these landlords to amass as well as wealth a great deal of power, which they take to the political scene.
Then these illiterates buy their way into parliament and become MNA's
The case is so bad that there are some landlords who are in the parliament that use a thumbprint to ok official document.
They can't read and write, English Urdu or their regional language.
Of course they abuse their power when at the top like giving money to family members, taking bribes, giving relations easy jobs without qualifications and take expensive trips abroad etc. etc.
They use the police to their own whims and will getting opponents political or social beaten up, thrown in jail or killed.
They promote slavery, they have torture chambers, and nothing they do is humane.
So socially and politically the Feudal system is bad news for the country.

On the economic it is the opposite.
Pakistan's main exports and a majority of its economy is agriculture orientated.
And these landlords are mainly responsible for this part of the economy.
They have the land, the money, the equipment and people.
They get workers who they pay very little, but they provide them with the seeds, the equipment, the fertilizer, the insecticide etc.
This is all very expensive, extremely expensive running into 10's of thousands of rupees.
A very very high cost of a single farmer on his own land.
Since the Feudal lords control so much of the land they can easily take advantage of economies of scale, buy in bulk and produce goods a better and cheaper and more efficient rate.
They produce a massive amount of agriculture products on which our economy and basic life depends on.
Now if the govt abolishes the feudal system and our economy would collapse our exports would dry up and food would become scare in the short run.
If the govt does follow through with this approach they would have to divide up the land equally among the poor people in Pakistan, which would lead to other problems like fights over the best land the irrigation system right of passage to adjunct land etc etc.
No selling the land won't work as only the rich would have the ability to buy the land and you would be recreating the feudal system all over again while the poor people would be left out in the cold and would not be able to better their lives.
At the same time the govt would have to subsidies these new smaller farmers heavily as they won't have the money to buy the seeds, the equipment etc.
This would be a long-term problem with the govt having to foot a huge bill due to increasing debt and decreasing exports - due to the decrease in agricultural output.
This could lead to govt insolvency and bankruptcy beyond which there is no hope.

The solution???

I have no freaking idea.
Though I believe it can be phased out over a period of time.
The first thing is that they should decrease the amount of irrigated and unirrigated land per person over a number of years to say 15 hectares of unirrigated land and 35 hectares of irrigated land. Each time they decrease the amount the leftover land can be given to the govt, which divides it among the people.
Economically this should work.
But Politically the Feudal lords are the ones in power in the parliament.
And they will never agree to this.
Also what would stop the landlords from exercising control over the people controlling land adjunct to theirs. The feudal land system's power has to be broken first before social and economic reforms can be implemented.
IMO the feudal system needs a drastic and violent cut down but that would cause economic political and social chaos.

Ok my brain hurts due to the over thinking and my fingers due to the typing.
So give your opinions on the topic, while I get some panadol.

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CROIRE A L'INCROYABLE

[NYAhmadiX]

CM. where did you learn your numbering sequence? What is 1AB123C? Go and refine your post, which has a lot of fighting potential. Just use bullets, and leave the alpha-numeric. You confuse people with your dumbness.

[skv anand]

Hello CM,

(I don’t know if you like my posting as you name me racist, reasons known to you only.)

In India we have near about the same problems.
Feudal system was abolished by law but it continued clouding the society for long in some are other shape.

I suppose that if we both the countries close down enmity funds, it may help a lot.

Rgds

[CM]

NYA you in a fighting mood?
Such an obvious attempt to get a fight started is pathetic.
And as a mod and picking a fight it is truly pathetic.
You know you suck as a mod.

And dang you are right numbers are al screwy, guess tab does not work on this format.
And if aren't smart enough to figure that out i suggest you don't have the intelligence to post on this thread.

Anand you know why i deem you a racist.
Lets leave it at that.
Now if you could provide some info on the indian way of things it would be greatly appreciated.

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CROIRE A L'INCROYABLE

[Mr Xtreme]

Good post CM. I haven't got time now, but will come back to it later.

[Malik73]

Commendable effort CM, and a very relevant topic to discuss. I'm gonna print it out and look at it in more detail, and give a more detailed reply later.

[skv anand]

Sorry, Cm, it is better not to provide a wrong information. I have no mastery in economics or agriculture.
Since 1950 or some time after India accepted five year plan formula for development. It was adopted on Soviet pattern. Twice it got a set back. That was during Indo-China war and Indo-Pak 1965 war.

Nehru and Mrs Gandhi govts spent a lot of money and infrastructure in making India a self-independent nation economically. Big plants like Bhilai (Steel plants) were established. It was a policy not to borrow anything from abroad. USSR did make a great help by agreeing on Rs trade.

On the contrary, while spending a great strength on big plants education of masses was given a primary stand on the papers only. Free schools were opened all over India, but nothing was done to attract the people, the poor.
It’s a contrast that in industrial growth we are in a good competing position in the world, where as in poverty line we are far behind.

Adoption of a relevant constitution also played a major role. Only once (1975-1977) Mrs Gandhi could abolish most of the liberal laws, an internal emergency was proclaimed. But she could not hold over it for long and had to go to elections.

Judiciary is supreme in India. But cases remain pending for long. It is a great setback for a democratic system.

Nothing to mark for corruption and bureaucracy, as we both countries have the same culture.

Religion has no say in Indian State.
Pak people are panic over rise of Hindutva. RSS might have some conspiracy behind the curtain. But more or less people see no charm in it.
Why people vote for BJP? First, BJP has taken a stance of non-appeasement policy towards minorities and exploit people’ senses to last. People were getting fed up of the Congress’ self-styled secularism. After the fall of Congress this is the only party that has come over united. In coming elections Congress or similar parties are also trying to attract Hindu vote, while shouting at BJP for being anti minority. This is very common in a democratic system.

(CM, let it remain out of the context. It is not a matter of your topic. I did not mention all these things on relevant topics because most of the time your people are in no mood to read something rational.)

Rgds

[Mr Partypooper]

Originally posted by chilli:
Hey, is this guy crazy or what ? I can never imazine printing-out somebody's post to look at in detail, and printing out CM's post...god...
well..u guys certainly have time....I feel sorry for your employers..

Dear chilli,

A more commendable response to such an inherently interesting topic by CM would have been along the lines of:

This is an interesting topic to discuss and I will therefore try my very best to come back to you asap in order to add my comments, which hopefully, will raise some pertinent issues which can be constructively discussed.

CM,

I will read up some material on the feudalism issue, before I comment on your thoughts on the subject. I am a bit busy, because of bad timing, I can't respond straightaway.

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They shoot partypoopers, don't they?

[Malik73]

There is no doubt that feudalism is the curse of Pakistan, it has been since independence and before. We must not forget that the elite land-owning classes actually opposed the Pakistan movement, and only when Pakistan became an inevitability that they jumped on board. Some of the main reasons that (west) Pakistan was unable to make bold moves to outlaw feudalism like India, is that the ruling Muslim league was dominated by feudal’s, and that the new state’s priority was building a new nation from scratch.


Successive governments have failed to prioritise funding on education and national infrastructure among many other things. Coupled with increasingly centralised and corrupt governance, the feudal’s have tended to fill the void. An illiterate and desperate person is forced to go to his local feudal ‘master’ for employment, settling land disputes, access to water and electricity, and take issue with local authorities. This has created an unfortunate dependency culture.


BUT, even if feudalism can not be abolished in one foul swoop because of the large vested interests at play, it can be slowly but surely undermined. Demographics are playing a part in this. Feudal’s rely on the votes and loyalties of the rural population. But over time an increasing number of people are moving out to live in the cities, almost 40% of the Pakistani population now live in the urban areas. The government can redraw parliamentary boundaries and increase the number of total seats. This will significantly reduce the political power of the feudal’s, and their strangle hold over the policy-makers of Pakistan.


The CE’s Local Government Plan begins from the bottom, and has the potential, if fully implemented to challenge feudal power at the local level. For instance under the plan, local land courts will be set-up to deal with land and right of way disputes. More powers and a better share of funds to the new District governments will allow them to tackle the local problems that at present feudal’s tend to take ‘care’ of.


As for land re-distribution the government needs to seriously study schemes followed in other countries like South Africa, where a land commission has been set-up to redistribute land from whites to landless blacks. The military government has to implement the agricultural tax that so many other governments have shied away from under pressure. I am not sure but I think the CE’s government took some action in late 1999 on the amount of irrigated land available.


More later…




[This message has been edited by Malik73 (edited April 27, 2001).]

[mundyaa]

>>>>>Feudal’s rely on the votes and loyalties of the rural population. But over time an increasing number of people are moving out to live in the cities, almost 40% of the Pakistani population now live in the urban areas. The government can redraw parliamentary boundaries and increase the number of total seats. This will significantly reduce the political power of the feudal’s, and their strangle hold over the policy-makers of Pakistan.<<<<

we wish. but these feudals have also moved to cities. for a non-feudal to be able to run in elections, you need endless resources for 1. to be able to obtain a ticket from any party where you are at the mercy of feudals again and 2. need a lot of cash to spare which Pakistan's middle class and upper middle class can produce if they desire but gambling isnt their thing. More importantly the political scene is associated with a gang like persona around it unfortunately once again thanks due to these feudals and their spoiled generations. so no "banday ka puttar" is going to bother with elections in the first place..... and even if they did like Imran Khan, its an uphill battle where you are upagainst a system which took years upon years to mess up.

Pakistans biggest problem isnt feudalism though i think, its corruption. just like you and i live on food and water these rascals live and thrive upon corruption. if we can eliminate corruption most of these feudals will sell their land and get out of the country. But, corruption in Pak is a beast. for one its everywhere. in our justice system, in law enforcement, in education, in govt, in forces, you name it... its there. and getting rid of it isn't easy.

We need a Taliban style revolution. A couple of corrupt policemen punished thoroughly on the streets will send a clear signal out to all the other policemen to do their job right. all murderers turned politicians hung outside parliment is all thats needed for any future politician to go around killing innocent civilians just because they bothered to speak up against him and/or his party. Taliban might be on one extreme presently in Afghanistan as even Islam does not force pardah upon women and or force beard for men. but whats really important is that laws are atleast applied to both genders. Thats exactly what we need. We have laws, the shariah to eliminate corruption and all the ills of the society. We do not need any new laws, we only need someone who can enforce the existing ones justly.

[This message has been edited by mundyaa (edited April 28, 2001).]

[Old Man]

Can you guys please give me more info how this feudal system works?

[khan_sahib]

I think the only problem we have is a lack of Justice in the society and if we can implement proper justice then everything will fall into it's place.

From France to Indonesia and Russia to South Africa one thing is common that whenever unjustice became prevalent then we saw a kind of revolution against their regimes.

A good story which one of my teacher told me is that there are two guys going to office one on foot and the other one in his saloon car. It goes on for a long time unless it starts to rain one day. Both are going to office normally but the splash of water from stagnant water on the road made other guys clothes dirty. Now he picks up a stone and throws at the car. Does it make any sense??

[CM]

Bumpity bump bump.....

[Bhadsha]

I'm not sure if Fudealism is the major problem...it certainly is one of the problems..... India I belive got a better start as they had strong government( Nehru etc) in the begining which was able to take bold policies.... however in Pakistan's case after the death of Jinnah, we sufered Liaquat had some potential but ofcourse he was also a feudal...but after that due to turmoil...the Feudals took advantage and were able to retain power.... However this post is about the Future... I don;t think redistribution etx..are really good ways..... Pakistan really should utilize the South Korean model.... Mass education of the people...but making sure quality of education is enforced..... and promoting Corporate Culture...in Farming....tax breaks etx...... Corruption is a big empidement.... in that I think the laws need to be sternthened.... such as anyone causing corruption over 1 lac.... stick a needle in his arm.... and special emphasis needs to made on law and order side...for too long we have been blaming just the police...we need to reform the judiciary.... cases must be dealth with within a month.... no case extensions....

[Zakk]

Simply abolishing Feudalism is not the answer, they did that in India and just look at the state of places like UP and Bihar. Corruption levels are off the charts!! The new class of people who replaced the Feudals ended up doing exactly what they did.

Pakistani courts also deal with cases faster then Indian ones, 4 years compared to their 7 years. The problem is one of credibility our courts have no credibility with the people. That's because theye xist in a way which is a violation of the most fundamental concepts of Democracy. The separation of Judiciary from the executive.

I am also surprised no mention was made of the Army's role in Pakistans present situation? They did rule with absolute power( and we all know what absolute power does), for much of the countries existence after all.

On the economic side it can be expressed in a few monosyallables, overtaxed, top heavy, over regulated, overcentralised and uncompetitive.