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**rvikz** · Apr 11, 2001, 10:53 AM

how about following path of islamic countries like malasiya whic is economically succesfull

**mAd_ScIeNtIsT** · Apr 11, 2001, 11:16 AM

I would just like to point out to rvikz that there is a difference between an Islamic Country and a Muslim country. An Islamic country is a country which implements Islam in its totality in its political and legal affairs. A Muslim country is simply a country where the population is mainly muslim. Malaysia is a Muslim country, not an Islamic country.

**Infoman** · Apr 11, 2001, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT:
I would just like to point out to rvikz that there is a difference between an Islamic Country and a Muslim country. An Islamic country is a country which implements Islam in its totality in its political and legal affairs. A Muslim country is simply a country where the population is mainly muslim. Malaysia is a Muslim country, not an Islamic country.

Maybe that's why it is relative economic success. Food for thought. They don't train their youth to go die in enemy lands but ask them to work for the betterment of their own situations.

**oiqbal** · Apr 11, 2001, 01:49 PM

Firstly I believe that all Islamic systems are necessarily democratic systems. The only difference is that the moral and ethical limits here are provided by God, on which we establish law or as we say Shariah, where in a democratic system, such a thing is provided by intuition coupled with the concept of liberation of man.

Sahaba-e-Karam followed Islam but used to sit together and make cumulative decisions. They used to differ on matters and in the end Caliph's word was the final decision. Umar believed that in the time of famine hands of the people should not be cut, and this was the first time when such a decision was ever taken. Muhammad had not legislation which provided such a leave in any case, yet it was held for the time being and prevails today in form of socio-economic justice. In modern day, Maulana Maudidi supported Fatimah Jinnah against Gen Ayub Khan, although he maintained that a female cannot be leader of an Islamic state. In doing so, he justified that sometimes we have to take decision which are against the Shariah itself.

Having said that, our problem today is not necessarily the system, its the people. Frankly speaking, none of us knows whats written in Qur'an. We read it so often, its perhaps the most read book in the world, and perahps the least understood. Because we just read the Arabic part, no translations and no understanding of Qur'an takes place, where as the Book stresses so much on understanding itself. After having read this message, I know hardly anyone will think a second time in this direction.

We're corrupt by default. New generations are bred into corruption by their parents who themself are ignorant of their beliefs. Only if we were not to be dishonest, any system could be the best system. System itself cannot do anything. Implement a Shariah with such corrupt people who do not know what Islam is, and you'll see every second person with a hand cut or 80 lashes because any four witnesses will appear in the court on his case. Pity, isn't it?

In fact, right now I believe Shariah is a bad option, for the same reason that those 20% who implement law are corrupt. Most laws of Islam work on Muslim (who is supposed to be honest) basis, which is no longer prevalent right now. For the same reason, I believe this was not the best time to abolish interest banking.

In short, we all need to know we'll stand in front of God one day and He will ask us, were we Muslims because we knew about Islam or because we were born one? Did we follow the Islam that He sent down in Qur'an, or did we follow blindly the people around us? Did we ever try to understand His word? Its God's Word people, and we don't care!

Omer

**mAd_ScIeNtIsT** · Apr 11, 2001, 10:52 PM

Infoman,
Is that a hint-hint reference to Pakistan? For your information, I do not consider Pakistan to be an Islamic country, nor do I think you will find many others who think so. Islam is not implented in its totality in Pakistan's political and legal affairs. In fact, many aspects of Pakistan' politics and legal matter deviate greatly from Islam. Pakistan can only be stated to be a Muslim state, not an Islamic state. In my humble opinion, there is currently no truely Islamic state in existence in the world, due to the historical repression of Islamist movements by secularist governments throughout the Muslim world from Morocco to Malaysia.

[This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited April 11, 2001).]

**maihu_don** · Apr 13, 2001, 07:09 PM

I know pakistani's r very intellegent that's why from last few years there are saying that they want to make pakistan a Islamic state .
There are many reasons one of them is that america and WB continuously harrasing pakistan for loans and thats why they think that due to this move they can collect funds from the islamic world for JEHAD, and can use a good ammount from those funds for develoupment of pakistan ....
G R E A T

**muhammed kauser** · Apr 15, 2001, 06:43 PM

Salaam

I do not believe entirely that it is the people who are bad because if we look at just a basic example of the wages a average policeman gets he can not even feed him self let alone his wife and children and mother and farther so when there is an opportunity for a bribe he will or course take one, its like saying a person hasn't eaten in a week and has no money and is show a shop where they sell food he is of course going to steel it or he or his family will die.

Anyway I believe the economy of Pakistan is not independent it is externally controlled via the I.M.F (international monetary fund) or the WORLD BANK, as just goes to show that recently Pakistan raised the price of gas, and will impose taxes on the people to pay off the high interest based loans from the I.M.F, whilst the general Muslims suffer from poverty the land owners and rulers live it up with the wealth, please read the following news article.

WASHINGTON, April 13: The economies of Pakistan and Ukraine have declined
so much during the past decade that they are now among the world's poorest
nations, while China has surged out of the lowest-income category ,
according to the World Bank.

But Pakistan has said it has no plans to seek extraordinary debt relief
under the World Bank-run Heavily Indebted Poor Countries Initiative, the
Bloomberg news service said on Friday in a despatch based on the World
Bank report that was released on April 10 (partly published in Dawn on
April 11).

If Pakistan agrees to be declared as a poor country, it will lose access
to the capital market and will become dependent on concessional loans.

But, Bloomberg says, Pakistan also wants to obtain new credits at
below-market rates, and quotes the economics minister at the Pakistan
embassy here as saying: "It's very important that in this short-term,
critical period Pakistan should be given additional concessional funding.
We need it."

In the World Bank's estimation, Pakistan joins countries like Rwanda and
Nicaragua, which are so impoverished they are eligible to have hundreds of
millions of dollars in loans forgiven by the World Bank and other
creditors.

How to resolve the dilemma of being poor and yet seeking not to be
formally declared as such so that Pakistan does not lose its eligibility
for international loans confronts the country's economic decision-makers
with their biggest challenge.

Pakistan's $26-billion debt burden reflects what World Bank chief
economist Nicholas Stern has called the country's "lost decade" of the
1990s, when, according to him, poor policies, political instability and
corruption stalled the economy.

CHINA: China, which averaged more than 10 per cent growth annually during
the past 20 years, has now moved out of the lowest-income category, the
bank report says.

Chinese officials say they worry that the higher status may mean they will
have a harder time getting new loans from the World Bank. Even as the
percentage of people living on $1 a day fell from 80 per cent two decades
ago to 12% today.

Source: Dawn

I do not believe for one second that Pakistan is one of the poorest nations, with the ability to grow 3 crops a year (which is enough to feed the whole of Pakistan 3 times over) and production of cotton and the recent energy power stations, and nuclear weapons a strong well equipped army etc.

This is no sign of a so called poorest nation, from the nation and its natural resources it is fully capable of controlling its own economy , however I do not believe that Pakistan controls its own economy every leader wants for his or her own pocket and the economy of the nation is run by an external force and I believe it is the us under the guise of the I.M.F or the world bank..

Mohammed kauser
(College lecturer)

**blackzero** · Apr 15, 2001, 08:32 PM

I completely agree with the fact that islamic system of government is a democratic form of government... it cannot be otherwise.

apart from the fact that the congress and senate pass legislation of their own making.. the American form of government would be the most islamic form of government as the Leader is directly elected by the masses..

The Senate and Congress may be considered Shura council for the President/ Imaam.

you should not call a system to be corrupt when in reality it is the people within the system which are corrupt..

otherwise Islam can be labelled as a corrupt religion just by looking at the people following it.

I am a strong advocate to teaching and learning about religion and self betterment before going to armed struggle to enforce an 'Islamic State' as if every one follows Islam to the letter.. the form of government would automatically become an 'Islamic State'.. because people would have changed it by then..

You cannot have an Islamic State without a population well versed in Islam and educated - 'period'... as it Islam it is our obligation to be involved in the government.. which we cannot do if we are ignorant of the religion itself..

may allah give us capacity to understand the religion. and not follow it blindly.

**muhammed kauser** · Apr 16, 2001, 06:32 PM

Salaam,

Democracy is a system of kufr and is unlike the system of Islam, democracy is floored from its basis for Muslims, this is because the word democracy means rule of the people, for the people and by the people thus the people absolute masters, and they possess the sovereignty and hold its reigns. They practice their own will and steer it themselves. No one is answerable to any authority other than their authority. They are the ones who legislate the systems and laws - in their sovereign capacity -via their representatives whom they choose and they implement these systems and laws that they legislated through the rulers and judges whom they appoint and who derive their authority from the people in their capacity as the source of this authority.

This concept of Islamic democracy is haram and does not exist and is something the west try to push to us in order to make the Muslims believe that Islam can not provide us Muslims with a system, I say democracy is that same system which breeds homosexuality, pedophilia, incest, rape etc for the mere reason that if man is the legislator then mans needs change according to every individual so as an example homosexuality was seen as a disgrace not very long ago and know the west promote homosexuality almost every game show host is a homo.

Allah(swt) says "O you who believe! Obey Allah obey the messenger (saw) and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority (and) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and his messenger (saw). If you believe in Allah and the last day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. Have you seen those (hypocrites) who claim that they believe in that which has been revealed to you, and that which was revealed before you and they wish to refer for judgement (in their disputes) to the taghut (false judges) while they have been ordered to reject them. But shaytaan wishes to lead them astray. And when it is said to them; "Come to what Allah has sent down to the messenger (saw), "you will see the hypocrites turn away from youwith aversion;" [TMQ 4:59-61]

Dear brother black zero please wait for my next reply I have a opposite view of what you said about the Islamic state coming automatically

Ws sallaamu'alaikum wr wb

Muhammed kauser
(College lecturer)

**muhammed kauser** · Apr 18, 2001, 10:57 AM

salaam,

regarding the perfection of ones own iman and then a khilafah dropping from the sky

Perfecting oneself through changing Society

Muhammad (saw) was revealed the deen of Islam which he conveyed to the society where he lived. He (saw) did not have in him even a tiny amount of selfishness as he sacrificed all to carry the da'awa to the people. For none of us would even have smelt the sweetness of Islam had it not been for the da'awa that came before us.

The Sahaba (raa) had the best teacher who cultured them with the correct understanding of Islam. They likewise carried Islam to people through their sacrifice in the da'awa, the fruits of which we witness today.

Since the kuffar, who hate Islam, launched their intellectual attack against the ummah, they managed to distort some of the Islamic concepts so that Muslims started to carry these false misunderstandings instead of the pure Islamic concepts.

Among the most dangerous ideas which affected the Muslims made them shun the da'awa for Islam, look down upon those who work to keep the munkar out of society and hold in high esteem those who do not concern themselves with other than the perfection of their own iman.

Yet how could a person's Iman be perfected if he only had Iman in part of what Allah revealed.

Whose Iman is perfected who believes in the prayer and is motivated by it but disbelieves in the zakat and so does not pay it? Allah condemns the 'picking and choosing' from his deen. He says: "Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do." [2:85]

And so many other times He condemns the following of one's own desires.

So how can it be that some Muslims today can emphasise only some aspects of the Islamic Shar'iah and bring excuses to neglect the rest of Allah's deen, particularly anything which is more than just individual ibadah.

It is the kuffar from the West and East who propagated the notion that individual actions which involve chanting, seclusion and asceticism are better and more 'religious' than other actions which were concerned with the affairs of the life.

How could Muslims allow themselves to be drawn by such false claims when there exists no Islamic evidence to suggest such a thing? And Allah revealed Islam to define to the people what is pleasing to Him so that they would reject the shirk of following their own whims to define what is better for Allah.

On the contrary Muslims who were influenced by this devious philosophising of the Kuffar started to adopt that as the truth and interpret Islam with this filthy misunderstanding. They would emphasise the individual aspects of Ayat and Hadith, claiming that these were all that is important and others were just circumstantial and not important evidences for Muslims to follow.

They invented a lie called the 'Spirit of Islam�, which contradicted the Shar�iah wholly, but they still followed this instead of the text. They ignored ayat and hadith, which clearly contradicted their misunderstanding such that many people soon did not know such daleel, existed.

Further they made wild claims about the Sahaba y such that Muslims felt that it was impossible to be as good as them so we should not try to be as obedient to Allah as they were, but just to concentrate our whole life on a few individual actions, ignoring most of the revelation revealed to Muhammad r and most of what the Sahaba acted upon.

To claim that Muslims can improve their situation by isolating themselves from the affairs of society is false. Equally false is the notion that Muslims should just encourage each other to improve the individual personal actions to perfection before starting to discuss the affairs of society.

These claims help the kuffar to control the Muslims as we remain weak, never able to control our own affairs as we remain ignorant of how to manage them and defeat the Kuffar's conspiracies against us.

"And fear the Fitna (affliction, trial) which affects not in particular (only) those of you who do wrong, and know that Allah is Severe in punishment" [8:25]

The idea that Muslims should neglect calling the society to implement the Islamic rules in favour of performing individual ibadah is warned of in this Hadith, as the selfish individualistic people do nothing to prevent the evil, but vainly concentrate on their own piety instead.

The Messenger of Allah (saw) was asked: "will we be destroyed while there are righteous people amongst us?" He replied: "Yes, when the evil becomes great".

The Prophet (saw) said "Any people amongst whom disobedience occurs, and they do not change it, are not more honoured and more secure than the sinners from the punishment of Allah sweeping them".

Ahmad and Tabarani narrated on the authority of Udai Ibn Umairah that he (saw) said "Allah does not punish the general public because of the wrong doing of specific people until they see the evil (committed) among them while able to stop it and they do not.

If they do that, Allah will punish the specific people and the general public".

After hearing this, how could people listen to those who tell them not to speak about the evil in society? Our Master Muhammad has spoken, won't we then take heed?

Abu Dawud has narrated on the authority of Qays b. Abi Hazm: "That Abu Bakr t after he had glorified and praised Allah he said: O people! You read this ayah but you do not understand it: "O you who believe! Guard your own souls: If you follow the right guidance none can hurt you from those who have gone astray" [al-Maida:105]

'I heard the Messenger of Allah r say: "The people when they see the tyrant and do not restrain his hands, Allah will be about to punish them all". And I heard the Messenger of Allah r say: "Any people amongst whom sins are committed, and they could change them but they did not (change), Allah will be about to bring a punishment which engulfs all." [Abu Dawud: Book of Battles/3775]

And this is how Abu Bakr t had understood the importance of obeying Allah in this matter of speaking about the rulers who corrupt the society. Did Muhammad r not tell us to follow his Sahaba for they were like the stars in the sky?

And the other great and most eminent Sahaba also realised the importance of obeying Allah in all of his commands and how wrong it would be to neglect the role of the ruler, who is the protector of the Muslim ummah, who has authority to implement Islam and ensure Islamic rules are upheld.

Uthman bin Affan t once stood and said "Allah restrains by Authority more than Allah restrains by Quran"

The Messenger Muhammad r said: "The example of the person abiding by Allah's order and restrictions in comparison to those who violate them is like the example of those persons who drew lots for their seats in a boat. Some of them get seats in the upper deck, and the others in the lower.

When the latter needed water, they had to go up to bring water (and that troubled the others), so they said, 'Let us make a hole in our share of the ship (and get water) saving those who are above us from troubling them'. So, if the people in the upper deck left the others to do what they had suggested, all the people of the ship would be destroyed, but if they prevented them, both parties would be safe" [Bukhari: Book of Partnership/3775]

After this lesson, how could we be lazy and let the people on the bottom deck of our societies today, who wish to pander to the Kuffar and drill holes in our societies to let the kuffar's culture in such that we drown in their corruption and filth?

Then the advise given to the Sahaba is equally applicable to our situation today, has any of us not noticed a ruler who disobeys Allah I and his Messenger r?

Messenger(saw) said "There will be leaders over you, (who will do things) you recognise (as part of the Deen), and you don't recognise. Whoever recognised he would be relieved (of sin), and whoever denied (the wrong), he would be safe".

Ahmad narrated on the authority of Abu Bakrah that the messenger r said: "If the people see the Munkar (evil, wrong doing) and they do not change it, Allah will take them with a punishment".

Perhaps then the harsh condemnation from the lips of our beloved Prophet r will encourage us to seek the Jannah through obedience to Allah and make our actions a dua to Him I in the hope that he may be merciful with us on the Day of Judgement. Does not the promise of great rewards from Allah I motivate us to speak openly about his great Shar'iah and to expose the conspiracies against this ummah?

Then if we imagined that we could gain such rewards or avoid such dangers without commanding what is good and condemning what is evil we would be mistaken.

How could we think that we would become better when Al-Bazzar and Tabarani narrated on the authority of Abu Hurayrah that the messenger r said: "You shall enjoin good and you shall forbid munkar, or Allah will empower on you the evil ones, then your best ones will call upon Allah and he shall not respond".

Even this Hadith shows the error of the most pious people who neglect to command good and forbid evil.

Ibn Majjah on the authority of Abu Saeed, Ahmad and Ibn Majjah and Tabarani and Baihaqi on the authority of Abu Umamah Ahmad and Nisa'i on the authority of the tabie Tariq Ibn Shihab all narrated that the Messenger r said : "The best of Jihad is a word of truth in the face of a tyrant ruler".

If we ended this short article with how those noble Sahaba , who conveyed to us the whole deen, understood this topic and the importance of the issue ruling for Muslims.

Bukhari and Muslim narrated that Abu Bakr (ra) had said in one of his speeches: "And it is not lawful for the muslims to have two rulers. Whatever the reason is, their affair and laws will then differ, and their unity will be broken, and they shall dispute with each other. Then the sunnah will be abolished, and the innovation will appear, and the fitna will be severe". May Allah be pleased with him.

Imam Al-Khateeb narrated in his history and Imam Al-Khattabee narrated that Omar Ibn Al-Khattab (ra) said: By Allah, what Allah protects and prevents by the ruler is greater than what he will protect and prevents by the quraan". May Allah be pleased with him. [The hadith of Al-Khateeb is hadith number 14284 in Kunz ul Ummal by Al-Muttaqi Al-Hindi]

Al-Baihaqi narrated on the authority of Ali (ra) that he said "the people will not be straightened except by an imam (khalifah) whether he is good or bad". [hadith number 14286 in Kanz Ul Ummal]

Bukhari narrated on the authority of Qays Ibn Abi Hazim that Abu Bakr (ra) entered on a woman from the people of Ahmas named Zainab.... She said "until when will we stay on this good matter (islam) which Allah brought it after the ignorance time?". Abu Bakr said "as long as your rulers straighten on it". May Allah be plesaed with him. [hadith number 2068 in Jami'al Usul by Ibn Al-Atheer.]

Al-Darmi narrated on the authority of Hayya Bintu Abi Hayya. She said...o slave of Allah (Abu Bakr):until when will the ruling of islam be like this? He said: "as long as your rulers straighten for you". [Ibn Katheer said this isnad (chain) is hasan and good.]

Abu Nu'aim narrated in his book "Hulyat Al-Awaliya'" on the authority of Abdullah Ibn Omar, he said "The people in the ummah will not suffer even if they were oppressors and sinful if the rulers were guided and were guiding. But the people in the ummah will suffer and perish even if they were guided and were guiding if the rulers were oppressors and sinful". May Allah be pleased with him.

ws salaam
muhammed kauser
(College lecturer) www.khilafah.com.pk

**blackzero** · Apr 18, 2001, 12:22 PM

my dear co BBS'r

if having a khilafah enhances your religious knowledge and brings you closer to Allah..

so how come at the time of the last khalifah.. the society was rotten.. the people were corrupt.. muslim only in name. and i can continue with this list but it is only to give an indication..

If the change is not within a person and is enforced from without.. it creates resentment .. which has a bigger tendency for people to move away from religion.

I am aware of the fact that i am not going to change your mind on this and i have no intention to do so.. for all the time i will spend on it will be waste of my time.. which i could be spending understanding the religion rather than arguing about it.

as one of my mentors has said.. nothing comes out of discussion when the parties are coming from opposite points of view..

therefore the person who realises this and tries not the alter the other person's views will save his time and the other person's time.

so I am doing it for as much as my benefit as yours and ending my input into this discussion..

**scarface1** · Apr 19, 2001, 01:54 AM

"so how come at the time of the last khalifah.. the society was rotten.. the people were corrupt.. muslim only in name. and i can continue with this list but it is only to give an indication.."

And if you remember it was at this stage the Islamic state adopted democracy.

You're right that the people need education is Islam but if you remember it was the Islamic state that produced the great scholars of the past. If I don't know how to pray doesn't mean that the fardh is lifted for me.

**muhammed kauser** · Apr 19, 2001, 11:09 AM

Salaam,

When looking into history we must realise that it can only be taken as information and not as a source of legislation, unless when looking at the life time of prophet Muhammad (saw) which constitutes the sunnah and is a source of legislation for us as muslims, or when looking at the lifetime of the sahaabah (raa) the companions of the prophet (saw) which constitutes ijma as-sahaabah (the consensus of the companions) which is also a source of usool and legislation for us as muslims,

If we look at the muslims at the time of the uthmaani khilafah for many muslims, the way of life they were living was as they thought Islamic because the system at the time was not clear because of the lack of Arabic language and the lack of understanding of Islam due to the colonialist west who worked hard to remove the understanding that Islam could solve day to day problems, due to this the muslims were duped into accepting laws other than Islam unknowingly.

However we can not take this and say Muslims need to be good before the system can be Islamic, simply because the many evidences which show us that it is a fard to bring the khilafah regardless of individuals being good or not like when allah(swt) say � if you know one ayaat proclaim it�[TMQ]

And as Allah (azza�wa�jall) says in the holy qur�an �and those who disbelieve are allies to one another (and) if you muslims collectively all over the world do not do so [i.e. become allies as one united block under one khalifah (chief muslim ruler for the whole of the muslim world) their will be fitna, wars and battles] and oppression on the earth and appearance of polytheism [TMQ surah AL-anfaal verse: 73].

[tafsir of this ayaat by imam kurtubi, at-tabari and ibnu kathir]

So Allah (swt) says in the Qur�an that we must have a khalifah or their will be corruption and oppression and in many hadith which indicate the urgency and the obligation of working for khilafah.

Please refer to my previous post for more evidences

Ws salaam
Muhammed kauser
(College lecturer) www.khilafah.com.pk

Announcement

which way forward for pakistan?

which way forward for pakistan?

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