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apan offers 'privileged' ties if CTBT signed

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  • CM
    replied
    As long as we have not ratified the treaty they can't do anything.
    And more to the point, when i said that the CE should sign, i meant that the CE should sign it the day of the elections.
    Bring the new govt in and then they will not ratify it.
    So we get the money.
    And we don't sign the CTBT or NPT.

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    CROIRE A L'INCROYABLE

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  • Ahmed
    replied
    Originally posted by CM:
    India and Israel aren't on the list, and they can't check our wares.
    The CTBT only prohibits the testing of these weapons.
    They aren't on the list now but they could be in future,couldn't they?Besides they don't need to be as long as Russia,America,Britian are there.So who's not there is not a point to be considered.
    But can anybody view our wares without us ratifying the treaty?

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  • CM
    replied
    Dang even ahmed, the guy who runs away from posting has joined this thread.
    So Saba baji you must have alot of free time to type in the posts.
    Congrats to see you back in the land of the living.

    Your post now.
    Ok the gains are monetary and short term.
    Either we do it now, or we get stuck at the end with nothing to gain at all.
    Pakistan is at odds with the west.
    Our economy is crap.
    We have no investment.
    There is capital flight and brain drain.
    People are leaving as soon as possible, and we have a bad image due to the Taliban and military regime.
    We aren't in all that a good position.
    No the people won't agree, but since when have the common people of pakistan ever been accused of being smart specifically thinking in the long term??

    India and Israel aren't on the list, and they can't check our wares.
    The CTBT only prohibits the testing of these weapons.

    I am only thinking in the short term, to boost pakistan international standing and get rid of debt.
    I am sick presently and tried.
    A more detailed reply later in the week.
    Most likely tomorrow.
    InshAllah.

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  • Ahmed
    replied
    Originally posted by sabah:
    Ahmed,

    I understand that CTBT is not about normal weapons as such, however if we keep proving that we're for sale, this master-slave circle will never end. I seriously doubt that Pak producing NATO std weapons is good news for any western country either, so where do we draw the line? I believe that it's high time we proved that we know how to handle our own problems, we owe money we pay money, GOP should find a way to get our money back, that's what they're paid for.
    True.

    As for satellites, you're right, I have no knowledge, but I do remember that while all this was about to happen in Pak, DK media was still discussing whether Pak is capable of
    testing anything at all. Lekin I'd love to learn more about satellite systems
    Oh and its great to know that you've changed your mind
    Well media will be media.And some are more reliable than others.
    The sources I was reading gave pretty accurate information about movements and about timing and nature of blasts before they took place.All based on satellite intelligence.
    About satellites,well it's not impossible to fool them but it's not easy either.I'm sure every government tries their best but who knows how much success they get.
    To hide movements for example is almost impossible.

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  • sabah
    replied
    Ahmed,

    I understand that CTBT is not about normal weapons as such, however if we keep proving that we're for sale, this master-slave circle will never end. I seriously doubt that Pak producing NATO std weapons is good news for any western country either, so where do we draw the line? I believe that it's high time we proved that we know how to handle our own problems, we owe money we pay money, GOP should find a way to get our money back, that's what they're paid for.

    As for satellites, you're right, I have no knowledge, but I do remember that while all this was about to happen in Pak, DK media was still discussing whether Pak is capable of testing anything at all. Lekin I'd love to learn more about satellite systems

    Oh and its great to know that you've changed your mind

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  • Ahmed
    replied
    Sabah thanks for the clarification.
    Once again you make absolutely good points but you see the CTBT is only about nuclear explosions.Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty means that testing nuclear weapons after signing and ratifying this treaty would be illegal for us.

    It doesn't prevent us from developing other weapons or selling them at all.The only thing it prevents us from is hot nuclear tests.That's what the treaty is for.

    I agree with your points entirely but what we have to debate here is the CTBT and what are the effects of signing that.As it doesn't mean backing off from weapons.We can develop and test anything we want except nuclear warheads under this treaty.

    So the point that is made by those who advocate signing this treaty is that since we have already tested our nuclear weapons why not sign this treaty and get some benefits in return?Especially since we don't have to back-off on anything else.
    Of course the opponents of the treaty also have a strong argument of their own.

    Infact I was a supporter of signing in return of benefits until that is I read your posts here.You make compelling arguments about standing on our own feet and persevering for our development and not taking the easy way out.

    P.S.You have pretty inaccurate information about perfromance of satellites as they did track the movements(and also other things) but that is off the topic.

    [This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited March 26, 2001).]

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  • sabah
    replied
    Oh and thanks CM, geee I gotta get some life

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  • sabah
    replied
    CM, I don't think that it works that way, CE can't just say that his signs don't count as he wasn't the elected representative, so what about all the other signs? We're not really interested in getting all the garbage back right? Also this doesn't really represent Pak so nicely on the international forum.

    Realistically speaking what 'benefits' are we talking about? It's all about money that we will never see. We wont develop overnight just because we don't have debt anymore. Signing the treaty is not even beneficial in short terms - Look at the consequences, we loose ppl's trust, don't you think they'll ask CE why he doesn't get the looted money back and use them instead, how come it's easier to convince the entire nation to surrender instead of beating our nation's money out of those culprits? He is the CE of Pak after all. Secondly according to the treaty, any nation (of those who have signed) can do inspections in Pak, if I'm not wrong then both Israel and India might be on the list, you can't really call them our best friends. One of our plus points is that no one really knows where our nukes are today, we can't really hide them under our beds during the inspections once we do sign the paper.

    You also gotta think about what possibilities Pak has on the international forum - again realistically speaking Pak does not have speaking power today, and those who does have (US, UK etc) did not get there because of their super high moral std or because of other humanitarian yada yada, they are their because of their power, that you do not get by constantly bowing to whatever seems bigger then you. Most of the nations with highly developed tech industry also have well developed weapon industry these two things go hand in hand (in most cases anyway) Israel is a great example of that.

    Ahmed,
    No I'm not talking about explosions, of course every one would know if we did that, I'm talking about the development of such weapons in the future. We had nukes for decades, and no one knew for sure till we wanted them to know. Before that we didn't even test them that says something about our scientists confidence, I can't even imagine what would happen to Pak had the tests failed. As for the satellites, dunno what has happened since Pak tested the nukes, but if world's most sophisticated satellites and other fancy systems couldn't trace our nukes while they were being transferred from one end to the other, that too at a time, when the entire world was following Pak's moves, because of India's tests then I gotta say that our ppl are good. At least in this field we're well inside and we should move up not out. Even if satellite tech has improved since then I don't believe Pak froze it's tech in all this time, so hopefully we've improved as well.
    Pak managed to break into world's weapon market, which was said to be impossible so how can anyone explain (logically) that we should back off. Pak forces of any leaders of Pak should know what this means for Pak for not to talk about rest of the Muslim world.

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  • Ahmed
    replied
    Originally posted by sabah:
    They won’t know until we tell them or want them to know anyway.
    Great post Sabah,I have to agree with all the points you are making. But just a clarification on the above quote please,You were talking about nuclear explosions weren't you?
    How can anybody hide nuclear explosions?? Especially with siesmic stations all around our land?And don't forget the satellites.
    leaders should make the right decisions not the easiest.


    [This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited March 25, 2001).]

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  • CM
    replied
    Oooohh the adminstrator is a posting spree.
    Congrats on your 3000th post.
    And second i agree with you for the most part.
    Why do we have to sign?
    Because i say so, that should be enough of a reason!
    But really pakistan is in a big mess.
    With a democracy coming soon, it will be worse.
    I personally thinking about the best deal we can get.
    Then of course we can break the treaty.
    I say sign it.
    I didn't say implement it.
    Baji those are two completely different things in international politics.
    It is liking signing and then ratifing.

    So the CE can sign, and then tell the parliament of the elected govt to ratify it.
    he can say he can't ratify it as only the elected representatives can do that.
    I wonder if it will even get 1 vote for ratification.
    That is the way we get out of implementing it.
    We can have the vote every year, and defeat it every year.
    Of course the west will see the ploy.
    But it can't go against the rules of international soverignty.
    And the fact that common law remains supreme in the land, and the govt can not be forced to go against the wishes of the people.
    If it does, then the US would be forced to do the same.

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  • sabah
    replied
    CM forget India, why do we ’have to’ sign, its our country our technology, our money our decision! Every country has debt Pak is no exception. As for the CTBT, we should not sign it, not that morals count so much on international level that a stupid sign on some paper would prevent further tests in Pak. They won’t know until we tell them or want them to know anyway. I think that instead of wasting time and brain on this issue Pak should explore other possibilities, if the government wants to payback the ’qarz’ they’ll find a way to do it. Signing CTBT should not be an option, this is too easy. Pak has just entered the weapons industry on international level, cuz Pak has proved that it can deliver high quality products, so why crawl back into same old hole, and that too for money that our nation never saw.

    They should get back the looted money from the politicians etc instead of asking Pak nation to compromise again, leaders should make the right decisions not the easiest.

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  • CM
    started a topic apan offers 'privileged' ties if CTBT signed

    apan offers 'privileged' ties if CTBT signed

    apan offers 'privileged' ties if CTBT signed

    By Omar R. Quraishi


    TOKYO, March 23: An official of Japan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said here on Friday that
    Pakistan could expect a " very privileged" relationship and much increased economic cooperation with
    his country if it signed the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT).

    Explaining his government's point of view in reference to Foreign Minister Abdul Sattar's recent visit to
    Tokyo, Takeshi Hikihara, the director of the Southwest Asia Division of the Asian Affairs Bureau of
    Japan's Foreign Ministry (covering both Pakistan and India), told a group of visiting Pakistan
    journalists that his government appreciated the explanation given by Mr Sattar in relation to the signing
    of CTBT. He said that the foreign minister had told his Japanese counterpart that the Pakistan
    government was trying to build a consensus and public opinion in favour of the treaty's signing. He also
    said that the Japanese government was "happy" with the point made by the foreign minister during his
    Tokyo visit when he said that Pakistan would never be the first one to resume nuclear testing.

    However, Mr Hikihara said Tokyo felt that Pakistan had much to gain if it did sign the treaty, including
    the fact that it would help them have the "moral high-ground" compared to other countries which did
    not sign. He said the relations between Pakistan and Japan were very good but they would improve
    much more and Islamabad could expect to get a lot of help from even other industrialized countries.

    The official, however, said that his government was happy with the measures being taken by the
    Pakistan government to revive the economy. He also said that during Mr Sattar's visit the Japanese
    foreign minister had announced a 10 million dollars grant for the eradication of polio.

    Replying to a question, the official said that humanitarian aid to Afghanistan would not be affected
    despite what had happened in Bamiyan province recently.

    RESERVES COMMENT: Mr Hikihara said that Japan was happy with the progress being made by
    the Pakistan government for the restoration of democracy. However, when asked specifically for his
    government's reaction to mass arrests made by Pakistani authorities on the eve of a protest rally
    scheduled for March 23 in Lahore, the official said it was a bit early for him to make any remarks.
    "Yes, we are aware that arrests have been made, specially in Lahore, but we are still not sure as to the
    nature and reason of these detentions. Perhaps in a few days' time we will be able to make a reasoned
    comment," he added.

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    So we sign or not??
    I think we should but only for a lot of debt being written off.
    It is a common assumption in the US govt circles, that US doesn't want pakistan to sign before india.
    If we do, they will have to strike a bargain, where we will come out on top, as they want us to sign.
    But if india signs first we have to sign anyway and get nothing out of it.
    So i say sign at the end of the military rule.

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