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    Need to justify an ideology !

    I usually donot start a new post, but I thought I might just give it a try. I find that many Pakistanis here find this need to justify the existance of their country and the "theory" behind its creation. And the only way to do this is to show that minorities in general (and Muslims in particular) are in the worst shape possible. People seem to be blind to realities of whats happening in India. Any minority person in India at a high post is seen as a threat to Pakistan's ideology. Most Pakistanis (including the dictator) fail to acknowledge even the fact that more Muslims exist in India than in Pakistan. Every second day any Tom, Dick or Haroon questions the nations ideology -- these are Pakistanis not Indians. What has happened was in the past -- why the need to show Indian minorities living in a "fundamentalist state" ? Crimes against minorities happen in the US too -- much more than they do in India, so why single out India because of a deep hatred towards Hindus/Hinduism ? Why does Indian secularism (in any form) threaten Pakistani existance ?

    #2
    What are you talking about Bombaykid? You seem to have developed a sieve-like memory.

    Has the Babri Mosque been re-built? Were the thousands of muslims who died in the anti-muslim riots all suicide victims?

    When was the last time you saw a US celebrity cowering in his home while fundo mobs besieged his home? Dilip Kumar remember? RSS? Bal Thackeray? Powerful Indian politician? Are the pieces starting to fall in place now? Let me know if you need your memory jogged a little more and I'll happily oblige

    Comment


      #3
      Mr. Xtreme...answer the question -- we can discuss Indian secularism later ! Anyway...I am off for the weekend, till then think over it and answer.

      "When was the last time you saw a US celebrity cowering in his home while fundo mobs besieged his home?"

      Well no US celebrity accepted a "Nishan-e-Soviet Union" at the height of the cold war. Had he/she done it you would have seen the consequences !! I consider every pro-Pak Indian a traitor -- whether he's Dilip Kumar or Kuldip Nayyar or Morarji Desai (who was also hounded by the way)

      [This message has been edited by BombayKid (edited November 10, 2000).]

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        #4
        Yaar, poor Dilip Kumar even changed his name from Yousuf Khan to get a job in Indian cinema. Is he really pro-Pak? He accepted an award from Pakistan for his work in Indian cinema and that makes him a traitor?

        You're supposed to be convincing us that India is not harassing minorities remember? You said:

        why the need to show Indian minorities living in a "fundamentalist state" ?
        And then when I answer you, you ask me to discuss Indian secularity later!

        Why don't you just make it a multiple choice question then maybe you'll get the answer you want?

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          #5
          I am not saying that Dilip Kumar is a traitor. All I am saying is that IF he's pro-Pak THEN he's a traitor -- fair enough ?! Why dont you ask Dilip Kumar why he changed his name and you'll get a different answer -- but you dont wanna hear that cause you've convinced yourself.

          "You're supposed to be convincing us that India is not harassing minorities remember?"

          NO I cannot convince people who've made up their minds nor do I want to. I am simply asking you of your need to justify your nations theory ?

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            #6
            poor Dilip Kumar even changed his name from Yousuf Khan to get a job in Indian cinema

            I love this obiviously money and shaurat meant more to him than his muslim name, nobody held a gun to his head. Ha ha ha this is sooo funny.

            Comment


              #7
              BK what traitorous things has Dilip Kumar done? - is it because he has remined a Muslim even after he left Pakistan?

              Can no Indian in a billion express pro-Pakistani views? - what kind of state do you people live in when a person cannot even say what he feels?

              And why is being pro-Pakistani necassarily a bad thing? Are we less of nation than you?

              It seems your original question of Pakistan's idelogy has backfired and your view of Dilip Kumar is a great example of that i.e. being Indian means subscribing to the Hinduvta agenda or else!

              Comment


                #8
                And example of someone subscribing to the Hinduvta agenda is Rani - and a gun was held to her head in Delhi in 1984!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Rani,

                  I'm glad you think it's funny that one of your supposed screen heroes should be subjected to this humiliation because of his religion. He had to change his name because at that time it was unheard of to have muslim (male) film stars.

                  I suggest you read this article (written by a non-muslim) and then you might understand why it's a bit rich for people like you and Bombaykid to lecture us about 'secular' India!

                  ================================================== ========================================

                  http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/jul/21dilip.htm

                  Dilip D'Souza
                  Shamed By The Name Game
                  If you're an Indian cricket fan, you'll remember. In a match in Karachi on September 30, 1997, India's Rajesh Chauhan swung a full-toss from Pakistan's Saqlain Mushtaq into the midwicket stands. Six runs. Two balls of that final over later, India had won the match. That one muscular blow turned a likely loss into a famous victory Indians savour even today.
                  Even though we remember Chauhan's heroics, that day Saurav Ganguly had scored 80-odd runs. So it was he who won the Man of the Match award. It was not the first time, by no means. Over the years there have been dozens of matches held in Pakistan, like this one, in which Indian sportsmen have won awards. Now to my knowledge, nobody has asked Ganguly or anyone else to return those awards. Why not, I wonder. Isn't it patriotic to return Pakistani awards? After all, Dilip Kumar, the actor everyone knows is really Yusuf Khan, is being hounded to return the Pakistani award he got; apparently this is the only way he can show how Indian he is. So why not Saurav Ganguly?
                  Simple answer, of course. Saurav Ganguly is Saurav Ganguly. Dilip Kumar is Yusuf Khan, and when you have a name like that, your commitment to India is always questioned. Always. It does not matter how long you have lived in India, what you have done here, how you have lived your life. All that matters is your name. It alone will decide whether you will be subjected to tests of loyalty to India. "Yusuf Khan" means constant tests.
                  That's where we are today. For 52 years, Indians with names like that have served India with honour, honesty and courage -- from Maulana Azad to Captain Hanif-ud-Din, killed on June 7 in fighting in Turtuk -- but who cares? Indians with names like those are suspect Indians. That's an article of some faith. That's where we are today.
                  So Dilip Kumar must return his award. Women who, judging by the clothes they wear, also have names like those, must hold public demonstrations and carry "I Hate Pakistan" placards. At religious services to pray for our forces in Kargil, men with names like those must make an appearance beside other Indians: "casting aside religious differences", the caption below the photographs in the press says.
                  As if there are, without doubt and didn't you know, differences by religion in loyalty to the country. As if an award by itself makes you less Indian. As if the only way to be Indian is to hate Pakistan (why should we hate anyone anyway?) and hold up signs to say so. As if the rest of us, without names like those, need to be reassured by seeing these photographs on our front pages. Reassured that yes, those Yusufs and Hanifs and Mehrunissas have demonstrated their Indian-ness. Though only for now, of course. Naturally we reserve the right to question it again any time. Many times.
                  Yet, consider the deeds we can thank people with other names for. Three years ago, a man called Sukh Ram became everybody's symbol of the grasping corruption our country wallows in. Dozens of millions of rupees in unaccounted cash were found rolled in his bedsheets. A woman called Jayalalitha remains another such symbol, the crimes she is accused of summing even to billions of rupees vanished. Case after case against her struggles through special courts in Tamil Nadu, fighting past sustained efforts by this woman to subvert them. In 1996, once-minister Eduardo Faleiro stayed on in his sumptuous ministerial bungalow in New Delhi long after he was to have vacated it. Doordarshan's cameras showed us this man being finally, and physically, evicted. His belongings piled up on those pretty lawns as he spluttered on about the injustice and disgrace of it all. At the direction of a man called Bal Thackeray, we have watched men digging up cricket pitches, vandalising offices, terrorising nuns and young girls at convent schools, rioting all over Bombay. That rioting was so horrific, yet purposeful, that in his report about the events, Justice Srikrishna observed: "Bal Thackeray ... like a veteran general, commanded his loyal Shiv Sainiks to retaliate by organised attacks against Muslims." The veteran general and his juniors themselves rejected that report, thus ending any hope of seeing the guilty punished. Thus shaming India, shaming you.
                  Ram, Jayalalitha, Faleiro and Thackeray. Deeds like theirs, but nobody thinks it necessary to question the Indian-ness of people with names like theirs. Not just that; instead of being punished swiftly for their crimes as they would be anywhere that laws mean something, vandals and rioters are actually hailed, actually pose, as courageous patriots.
                  It goes on. Taking time off from subverting her cases, the lady in Tamil Nadu arrived at Madras airport one evening to lay a wreath on the body of a soldier killed in Kargil, being taken to his grieving family. Many of you reading this, judging from a recent Internet poll, want Dilip Kumar to return his award to prove his patriotism. (The gentle irony is that you are subjected to tests too: weren't you screeched at here about not contributing enough to the families of soldiers killed and wounded in Kargil?). The loudest questions about his Indian-ness come from those who carried out "organised attacks" against ordinary Indians, from the "veteran general [who] commanded his loyal Shiv Sainiks" to do so. The country's prime minister has neither the decency nor the spine to dismiss such questions as the repugnant rubbish they are. Instead he "leaves it" to Dilip Kumar to decide what to do with his award.
                  That's where we are today, too: where people who have evaded punishment for crimes against us are the ones who certify, with their wreaths and tests, which Indians are patriots and which are not.
                  That's India today. Know it and rejoice.
                  At a Quit India Day function in 1992, Captain Lakshmi of Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose's Indian National Army refused to even accept an award from people like these. She was that repelled by their destruction of the India she had fought for. On stage, in front of a chief minister and other notables, she handed back the petty token they were trying to give her and said: "I have no right to take any award or accept any felicitation as the independence we have achieved is false."
                  Indeed. In this independence, your name makes you suspect. On the other hand, your crimes not only make you a patriot, but also give you the power to decide others' patriotism. No questions asked.
                  That's why I was struck by a few lines I read in a recent review of a new book by Harold Evans called The American Century. The reviewer, Garry Wills, a professor of history at Northwestern University, writes: "[The book is] written with indignation. [Evans] notes that of the seventy blacks lynched in 1919, some were still wearing the uniform of the country. [He] criticises the dropping of the atom bomb. ... This is a honest book. Because it truly cares about America, it is also a patriotic one."
                  I was touched by this idea of patriotism. Not only does it seem that Evans is critical, even scornful, of much that his country has done this century; there is also no sign that he has demonstrated a blind hatred for any other country. And yet Garry Wills remarks that the book "truly cares about America."
                  I wonder when we will find the self-confidence for a similar patriotism in India. One which involves no hate for Pakistan, nor nonsensical tests called for by thugs, nor your name. One that grows out of caring for India, period.

                  Dilip D'Souza

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Everyone knows United States has a few problems related to racial/religious intolerance. Assuming we quantify it, it would work out to like 80% tolerant 20% introlerant. But I would say it is far better than india which would be at a 50-50 tolerance level. Now assuming a chrisitian from the US wants to settle in India while a Moslem/Hindu wants to settle in the US ( if we for a moment assume both the countries are doing equally well economically ( a joke!!)) it would be the hindu/moslem who would hesitate less about taking a decision to migrate. That proves that we (India) are still not welcoming enough to people from other countries/races/religion. That stinks.
                    Now instead of comparing US vs. India....lets compare India vs. Pakistan. What would be the probability a Indian hindu would be willing to settle in Pakistan instead of a Pakistani moslem in India.
                    ......You guys got the answer I think.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Xtreme,

                      The article is a personal opinion and i don't care for it. Pakistan is an enemy of India and for any Indian to accept award from an enemy country is absurd and unpatriotic to say the least.

                      Rabinder Nath Tagore returned the title of Sir to British establishment after 'Jaliawallah Bagh' episode and there are many other examples of people doing that but i guess it is too much to expect from people like Dillip Kumar. Indians should just completely ignore unpatriotic people like that no matter who they are, they don't deserve our attention.


                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Rani:


                        Pakistan is an enemy of India and for any Indian to accept award from an enemy country is absurd and unpatriotic to say the least.


                        Well then let me ask you, what are you doing on this PAKISTANI/ENEMY forum???

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                          #13
                          Well then let me ask you, what are you doing on this PAKISTANI/ENEMY forum???

                          We are trying to tell you the Indian side of the story as truthfully as we can, if you want to hear only your voice ask the management to ban the Indians and then you can hear your echo back.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Rani:

                            We are trying to tell you the Indian side of the story as truthfully as we can,
                            oh is that what ur doing?? and here i was under the misconception that ur here only to diss us...
                            btw..i dont know many Pakistanis who go to indian forums to tell 'our side of the story' We couldnt care less about what they think

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Rani:
                              Well then let me ask you, what are you doing on this PAKISTANI/ENEMY forum???

                              We are trying to tell you the Indian side of the story as truthfully as we can, if you want to hear only your voice ask the management to ban the Indians and then you can hear your echo back.

                              rani ur funny..
                              so ur sayin ur TRYIN to TELL the ""INDIAN" side of story as truthfully as u can..hmmmmm..well....sorry to say itz not working bcoz there is not truth..and alas..ur truthfulness is not working..try harder jee...
                              good luck
                              u'll need a loooooooooot of it..

                              dJ_ArSH
                              pakbeat.com

                              ------------------
                              ik nazer ke liey umer bher..umer bher ke liey ik nazer..

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