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  • Mr Partypooper
    replied
    sabah, look at the following carefully please:

    Originally posted by sabah:
    >> And people, please don't be so keen next time to agree with people like Insaaniat... why? Because these people have no idea what they are talking about.<<

    This has to be one the best adviceís Iíve seen posted on this board. Waise would you plz give me names of those countries that do not promote their products in every way possible. So by your logic saying buy tomatoes cuz they are better then hmmmmÖ ketchup is also racism. Look at the history dear, for most parts of the world itís all about money, and the reason young Pakistanis diss Pak is also money or lack of them. Itís not politics or corrupt this or that. Heck most donít even know whatís going on down there, Pak doesnít offer a luxurious life at this time, so itís all bad, nice logic a well accepted too.

    sabah, from this reply to my response above I just cannot see what you are driving at... When did I start talking about politics and corruption? When did I start talking about how pakistanis view pakistan? What history are you talking about? Whats this obsession about money?

    I think, sabah, that you did not read my response properly... I know for a fact that I'm not a good writer... but I did check it again... Maybe the post was too long... I apologise about that...

    I have a feeling that you were to eager to make your views after people posted their replies. I think you sort of assumed that they would be wrong anyway, and you were to keen to take them apart. And when you did try to take me apart, you didn't go through my response properly... You sort of skimmed quickly through it... too quickly.

    And when you responded to me... I didn't understand anything you said... You were obviously in some rush, and in your effort to try to take me apart your response was not coherent at all.

    Look at the above quote. Imagine what somebody other than yourself would have tried to make of it. I don't think they would have the time. If you don't give yourself enough time to read and think about what other people are posting, then I suggest that you don't bother to reply in turn.

    Not very professional. At all.

    ------------------
    They shoot partypoopers, don't they?

    Leave a comment:


  • Ahmedjan
    replied
    If i become Prime Minister,
    I will ask from the management of the Pak.org who is Saba? and what is his/her
    e-mail address

    Leave a comment:


  • sabah
    replied
    >> And people, please don't be so keen next time to agree with people like Insaaniat... why? Because these people have no idea what they are talking about.<<

    This has to be one the best adviceís Iíve seen posted on this board. Waise would you plz give me names of those countries that do not promote their products in every way possible. So by your logic saying buy tomatoes cuz they are better then hmmmmÖ ketchup is also racism. Look at the history dear, for most parts of the world itís all about money, and the reason young Pakistanis diss Pak is also money or lack of them. Itís not politics or corrupt this or that. Heck most donít even know whatís going on down there, Pak doesnít offer a luxurious life at this time, so itís all bad, nice logic a well accepted too.


    >>Ummm well Sabah I think we can get money by selling out natural resources and products of natural resources. Also the latest is using offering our I.T skills to foreign companies.<<

    Insaaniat, Our government is trying to do exact the same right now - selling natural resources require a lot of equipment and money. And when we finally get it, weíll need buyers. Can we discuss our possible buyers vs. our trade policy and our foreign policy?

    >> Well I did not have lot of foreign discussion with businessmen but for one I had talk about trade with Pakistan these were few points they made
    - The legislation and culture of corruption makes it hard to setup business.
    - The cities are not safe or stable to do businesses. Strikes and riots etc
    - Suppliers in Pakistan are failing to keep the standards. They show very good products when making deals and when it comes to supply the quality is upto the standard agreed.<<

    I wonít say that this isnít true but these Ďexcusesí are pretty lame. Lets take Ďem one by one, the first about corruption, admitted that we do have corruption, but compared with any other country in same economic condition weíre not unique. We talk too much and too loud thatís the main problem, having said that we do have a serious problem which we should deal with, corruption is holding us back.

    >>- The cities are not safe or stable to do businesses. Strikes and riots etc<<
    Thatís utter rubbish heard it so many times and Iím not even in business world. This is a general statement that shows lack of knowledge and is generally a lame excuse. Karachi is our biggest business-making city, we have problems there and in my opinion, active and healthy business life is the reason behind Karachis current miseries. Sialkot is one of our booming cities business wise, donít remember reading about strikes or riots there for a long time. Multan, Lahore, Islamabad, Peshawar etc are all safe. Most of those criticizing elements wouldnít even know what Sialkot is.

    >>- Suppliers in Pakistan are failing to keep the standards. They show very good products when making deals and when it comes to supply the quality is upto the standard agreed.<<

    What does Pak sell in general? What exactly is the problem, Iíve often heard that Pak exports better quality products and Pakistani buy lower quality products. ISO standards are becoming common in Pak these days. Not many can match our carpets, sport stuff etc, so where does lower quality come from. On the other hand Iíve often heard about lower quality tech from our neighbor, no one even talks about it, may I ask why?

    This sound as if I was criticizing you for even bringing up this topic, but thatís not my intention, just wants go a lil deeper with this.

    >> Believe me we can do it, only thing we need right is UNITY (in thinking, in actions). And that is what is exactly the enemies are trying to achieve. just keep divide pakistan until no body can think on broder picture where they are heading for.<<

    This is another serious issue that needs to be discussed, thanks for bringing it up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr Partypooper
    replied
    Insaaniat,

    I do not doubt your good intentions for our dear country for one second... but no sooner than I started reading the first item on your list, then I already became disappointed...

    Originally posted by Insaaniat:

    - Cease foreign imports and encourage people to use things made in Pakistan where possible.
    Why the heck do people always make this mistake? I'll tell you why, at the risk of boring the hell out of everybody, so please bear with me...

    I think you see the Pakistani government as some sort of great teacher, trying to maintain order on the playground, making sure that all the kids play the way the teachers special pets - special industries - want them to play... I think that stinks. And I'll tell you why...

    I'm not actually talking about corrupt landlords here... I'm talkng about this protectionism that you are propagating.

    Protectionism is wrong on several grounds...
    It is wrong because it robs people of a basic human right: the freedom to choose one's trading partners.

    It is also wrong for another reason. It's one that proper mainstream economists understand and you do not, judging by the above quote. This reason sits at the core of what it means to be a decent human being. It sits at the core of what it means to be a decent Muslim.
    All people are created equal, and nobody's right to prosper should be altered by being born or raised on the wrong side of an imaginary national boundary line. It would never occur to a decent Muslim to care more about a cottonworker in Pakistan than a cottonworker in Japan.

    If you go onto propagate this idea, you will find yourself frequently accused of racism from decent people who know how the world works. You will suffer a lot of bum raps on that score. But there is poetic justice in those bum raps, because your simplistic nationalism is every bit as ugly as racism, and in exactly the same way. Encouraging people to "buy Pakistani" is no different in principle from encouraging people to "buy white."

    We need to care about others. We care about those who are close to us and we need to care about strangers. But to care more about strangers who happen to be Pakistani than strangers who happen to be Indian is an expression of the basest, most hard hearted and soft headed instincts that a person can have. Thank God for free trade.

    Take a hypothetical example:

    Imagine there is a supermarket called Pak-Mart. Signs posted in every aisle boast of the store's efforts not to carry imported goods. Pak-Mart does not always succeed, admit the signs; sometimes they're very eager to carry an item that's not easily available except from abroad. But when Pak-Mart can, it prefers to "buy Pakistani - so you can too."

    By a time your child is old enough to read those signs, he/she is old enough to know that people who want you to care about the race or religion or gender or national origin of your trading partners are bad people.

    Replace "Pak-Mart" with "Wal-Mart", and "Pakistani" with "American" and you're looking at a real life example.

    So you think I'm being emotional? Fine, lets go analytic...

    One of the most popular misconceptions of practical men is that countries are in competition with each other in the same way that companies in the same business are in competition. Ricardo already knew better in 1817. An introductory economics textbook should drive home to people that international trade is not about competition, it is about mutually beneficial exchange. Even more fundamentally, imports, not exports, are the purpose of trade. That is, what a country gains from trade is the ability to import things that it wants. Exports are not an objective in and out of themselves: the need to export is a burden that a country must bear because its import suppliers are crass enough to demand payment.

    The reason why I mention this is that this concept of countries locked in some sort of competition, or battle, with each other, came up a few times in the replies to your post.

    And people, please don't be so keen next time to agree with people like Insaaniat... why? Because these people have no idea what they are talking about.

    OK, thats enough I think, I'm sorry to really bore the hell out of everybody... so let me go and put my rubber glove and sharp stick back...

    ------------------
    They shoot partypoopers, don't they?

    [This message has been edited by Mr Partypooper (edited October 06, 2000).]

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  • Insaaniat
    replied


    Where would you get money for all this? Also how would you implement these two plans in real life?


    Ummm well Sabah I think we can get money by selling out natural resources and products of natural resources. Also the latest is using offering our I.T skills to foreign companies.


    >> Cease foreign imports and encourage people to use things made in Pakistan where possible.<<



    The reason I said was because we as nation spend lot of money in foreign luxury goods imports. The result is our own brands loose to foreign big name no matter how good they are. The interesting thing was there was survey done by one company and asked consumer which product they will select for use. I can't remember actual figures but majority selected the foreign goods for two reasons;
    - The general public impression of public is Foreign goods are better.
    - We buy foreign goods are to create better image in society.

    Well it look like that we as Pakistani's are more concern with our image in society then what is good to our economy and our country. We need to change this thinking by telling people that we can make better things then what is in foreign countries.


    >> Encrouge foreign companies to make factories in Pakistan rather than importing the goods to Pakistan.<<



    Well there can be done by government and businessmen of pakistan. What businesses is paksitan need is identify the potential for foreign investors and present it in manner that attract foreign

    Well I did not have lot of foreign discussion with businessmen but for one I had talk about trade with Pakistan these were few points they made
    - The legislation and culture of corruption makes it hard to setup business.
    - The cities are not safe or stable to do businesses. Strikes and riots etc
    - Suppliers in Pakistan are failing to keep the standards. They show very good products when making deals and when it comes to supply the quality is upto the standard agreed.

    There some of the point that some businessmen told me. I am sure there will some other but these all to do with attitude of our some in business community in Pakistan. They think what they can do with businesses in Pakistan they can do same for foreign companies but this is not true.


    Did you check the new policies and plans for Paks improvement; did you find any of these issues on CEís list?


    Well Öyes there are some policies which proposed by CE (not necessarily in same wording). But right now it seems he is getting nowhere because the politician are trying very hard to fail him. (I donít want say anymore on this because it is not the forum or the post).


    You missed fundamental cause of pakistan's economic downfall due to its military competion with larger neighbor india. any country spending 50% of budget on defence cant become comptetive . also population explosion outstripping natural resources if population rate increases at the present rate pakistan wont be able to pay its army forcing pakistan to rely solely on nuclear weapons.


    Well what about India? India is using even greater part of its budget for defense despite how poor is its population is. For example is stated that about 1.3 Million People in India live on pavements. And despite this the Indian population is growing at higher rate then Pakistan's population.
    Well. I think of nuclear weapons as tactical weapon and I think it is very unlikely that Pakistan will ever use it. However it can be used if needed when required. After all the biggest nation claming human right (US) has used it to silence and end the war with Japan.


    its not 50% of our budget it is 5% of our GDP which is alot of money.
    Somewhere near 15 - 20% of our budget.


    Thanks for info.


    I agree with the guy says, but like you said how??
    All these things are nice in words but do they turn into deeds?


    Well ÖIt looks impossible but we can do IF everyone of us does his/her part in building the Pakistan and IF we are united in our efforts. Let me give an example. In 1965, on Jawanda border (near Sialkot) the group of civilians and armymen stop attack of around 300 Indian tanks with any. How?

    Believe me we can do it, only thing we need right is UNITY (in thinking, in actions). And that is what is exactly the enemies are trying to achieve. just keep divide pakistan until no body can thing on broder picture where they are heading for.

    We will get out of this crisis if we think as being one (Pakistani) not mahajir, sindhi, panjabi, pathaan, suni, shia, ahmadi, etc etc.




    [This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited October 05, 2000).]

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  • Pristine
    replied
    Thats proly because the remaining 80% of our GDP is spent on debt servicing! And usually these two (defence + debt servicing) figures are clubbed to reinforce the point that only 5-10% of our budget is spent on ADB (Annual Development Plan).

    Nice topic though. Keep up the suggestions, and I might pass the really nice ones to the General.

    Adios!

    Leave a comment:


  • CM
    replied
    its not 50% of our budget it is 5% of our GDP which is alot of money.
    Somewhere near 15 - 20% of our budget.

    ------------------
    CROIRE A L'INCROYABLE

    Leave a comment:


  • sabah
    replied
    Rvikz

    Could you plz gimme a ref Ė I wanna check that 50% budget thingie for my self. Thanks.

    Btw. Insaaniat

    Did you check the new policies and plans for Paks improvement; did you find any of these issues on CEís list?

    HmmmÖIím just wondering how Mursalin can afford all this, if Azkar bhai is paying him more then me, Iíll strike huh!



    [This message has been edited by sabah (edited October 05, 2000).]

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  • CM
    replied
    Actually no.
    He is paying me handsomely to get more posts on the world affairs section compared to the pakistan affairs on.
    I get i BMW and a Brand new laptop, if this gets to the world affairs section.

    Anyway i agree with the guy says, but like you said how??
    All these things are nice in words but do they turn into deeds?

    Leave a comment:


  • rvikz
    replied
    you missed fundamental cause of pakistan's
    economic downfall due to its military competion with larger neighbor india.
    any country spending 50% of budget on defence
    cant become comptetive . also population
    explosion outstripping natural resources
    if population rate increases at the present
    rate pakistan wont be able to pay its army
    forcing pakistan to rely solely on nuclear
    weapons.

    Leave a comment:


  • sabah
    replied
    HmmmmÖ I would definitely vote for you, but first tell me, where would you get money for all this?
    Also how would you implement these two plans in real life?

    >>- Cease foreign imports and encourage people to use things made in Pakistan where possible.<<

    And

    >>Encrouge foreign companies to make factories in Pakistan rather than importing the goods to Pakistan.<<

    I think CE would appreciate some good hints Ė so would I. Especially to the first. Btw, itís nice to know that you think positively for Pak, Pakistan deserves that

    CM, mere bhai, taking MY thread to world politics, lobbying Mursalin for free??

    Leave a comment:


  • CM
    replied
    This belongs in the world affairs forum.

    ------------------
    CROIRE A L'INCROYABLE

    Leave a comment:


  • Insaaniat
    started a topic What will you do if ???

    What will you do if ???

    You become Prime Minister of Pakistan

    Guys What will you do? How will you run the country? Let have you Guppy's view. Please keep topic simple and to the point.

    OK that's what I am going to do;

    - Cease foreign imports and encourage people to use things made in Pakistan where possible.
    - Increase close ties with neighboring countries like Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey, China and ease the laws governing the exports. Also sign the trade agreements with these and other Muslim countries.
    - Encrouge foreign companies to make factories in Pakistan rather than importing the goods to Pakistan.
    - Restructure the foreign services department so that they serve overseas Pakistani's more effectively.
    - Make plans so that every house in Pakistan could have clean water, electricity and gas available. Like making plant to convert the sea water into drinking water like Saudis done, import power plant from china or Russia. We already have gas but system can be more efficient.
    - Make a plans to improve the communication in Pakistan i.e. telephone systems, Internet access etc.
    - Ban all the political parties and religious groups who try to create sectarian violence and trying to divide the country and specially Muslims.
    - Send Army back to their posts and make sure that army duties are to guard the borders and not get involve in internal affairs. Also equipped the army with best arms, tanks, fighter planes from any source.
    - Give media freedom specially TV from the state control. However also introduce the code of conduct and make a commission with members from media and government to deal with any cases of unethical conduct from media e.g. newspapers.
    - Improve the heath by making sure that every person has access to doctor or nurse within 5 miles.
    - Abolish the current system of Urdu and English schools colleges and universities. Instead will have everything in English with Urdu as subject at every level.
    - Make more colleges and universities so everyone get chance to higher studies and make enrolment on basis of merit.
    - Introduce the culture of research right from schools to universities and in businesses.
    - Encourage small businesses and culture of out souring to other Pakistan based companies so creating more jobs.
    - Improve taxation system so that everyone pays his or her bit of tax. However poor will be exempted.
    - Restructure the police force and make sure that entry to police in only on basis of merit and every Policeman get training to perform his duties. Increase to pay to reasonable level for police and security forces.
    - Make hard punishment for crimes like bribe, stealing manhole, damaging properties (including government)
    - Make access to justice system more swift and easy and allow channels so that people can put their case without going to solicitors for small cases.
    - Make sure that courts have self-displinary system which starts from bottom to top (S.C). If any person found of any type of crime he will be removed from his post.
    - Make a National database of blacklist and corrupt officials so that they donít get job in other government department.
    - Make the promotion in government offices performance related and this goes right to the top.
    - Make a complain department in every government department and have centralized system of monitoring these complains.

    And list is endlessÖÖÖ..Well I know this looks like I am dreaming and thinking as ideal Pakistan but hey creation of Pakistan was dreamÖwe did it 50 years ago.... And we can do again but ONLY when we decide and we will be united in thinking. I have very good hope and I will never give up these hopes.


    ------------------
    "Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."

    [This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited October 05, 2000).]
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