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honour killings, the truth for Rani

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    honour killings, the truth for Rani

    Dear Rani,
    Its an old saying pehlay apnay girehbaan main jhanko aur phir doosron parr ungli uthao.

    The ritual of Satti has been practised in India for hundreds of years where a bride is thrown into the burning chitah of her Husband. If you read statistics by humane societies working in both India and Pakistan you will see that numbers of which women burning by "stove" accidents are alot higher in India than the ones in Pakistan because of Polygamy. I am not saying its all good in Pakistan, but please you sound like a reasonable mature person, do not create a picture of India that all is well and good and after having a bad day dont take your anger out on Pakistan and muslims, remember your secular country has alot more of us Muslims than in Pakistan.

    The difference between sati and honour killing is that sati is voluntary death and honor killing is not. if someone is compelled to die, it is not satim it is murder.

    Secondly, sati is outlawed. Law enforcers are responsible if such a thing happens.

    Last time sati happened was 10 years ago. Chief minister of Rajasthan Harideo Joshi resigned after incident. not only the family of the woman which goes sati, but law enforcers in that area were taken to task.

    On the other hand, there is no enquiery on honor killings. The father of honor killing victim samiya could share dias with Musharraf. There is no action taken, no law enforcement officers are taken to task.

    In fact even supposedly leftist parties like ANP did not support anti-honor killings bill.


      Before Islam, people used to bury their daughters alive and now we kill them alive. Nothing has changed much! Shame on all of us.

      Sarfraz Khan


        So what you are saying that asking a person that can I murder you is humane? Justification to Satti is ridiculous ZZ. I am not saying honour killings in Pakistan are okay, being honest I havent read about honour killings in Pakistan, behind every story there are two sides so there must be some other side to the story. I am sure who ever died, didnt die without any reason, and if there was investigation. Wh there wasnt one! As the they say in Punjabi "aini kutt we nahi machi hui".

        But your justifying satti is ridicolous. And as far as satti being pravtised is my friend, one of my friends who is from Rajhistan, visited his ancestral village and he told me about many stories of satti still being practised there. Its just not known by the authourities. Thats pretty much it.

        [This message has been edited by AliBeta (edited May 12, 2000).]


          sati is more like suicide. i am not justifying it. but it is not murder.

          in sati, woman walks up the funeral pyre and dies with husband's dead body. this happens before whole town. so if there is any forcing, people would know. at least in roopkunwar case, there was no forcing. still chief minister had to leave chair.

          newspapers would write, if it happens. it can not be hidden. it is a sensational news. in fact, in roopkunwar case, you could lose track of number of reporters that covered the case.

          if it is happening you give tips to newspapers in india, they would write. there are leftist newspapers like 'The Hindu' (dont go by name) or semi-christian 'The-week' which are widely read. tell them the places, they would cover. Or u can tell to BJP, they will be happy to pull up the current chief minister in rajasthan who belongs to congress.

          Dowry deaths etc. there is a law which makes it mandatoary to investigarte any death in three years of marriage. there are around 80 mother in laws in tihar jail convicted for killing daughter in laws.

          Politically powerful people like Bibi Jagjit Kaur (and she is sikh) can get away with murder. but it is unlike pakistan where all and sundry are allowed to murder in name of honor killings.

          [This message has been edited by ZZ (edited May 12, 2000).]


            Why is this thread is addressed to Rani, she only brought it up in the other thread, oh well the starting comments destroyed the whole thread etc Ė but we can not hide this crime by pointing fingers at others. Also this canít be compared with sati, and even if it did, we should concentrate on what is closer to us first.

            Alibeta, as for reasons behind the killings, sure there are different sides of the story, or all stories. But in most cases all parts can or should be allowed to say something. In honour killing cases mostly men talk. Anyway, in Somiaís case there was an íinvestigationí and the police had successfully covered it for her father. Some common reason are, the girl not wanting to marry a man of her familyís choice Ė or she falls in love with some one. Or she seeks divorce, perhaps to marry another person, or her husband believes that she is having an affair (no need to prove anything). There are many other reasons, some fall under the concept of Zinna Ė but shariya court should decides what should happen to the ppl involved, not her husband or in some cases chacha mamaís.

            Anyway, until few weeks ago there was no law against this sort of killings, Ppl could prove that they are allowed to kill their female relatives according to shariya Ė you canít do that anymore. Itís funny that in the previous thread and this no one cares to discuss the law, we are more interested in either blaming Islam or proving that Pak is worse in this then others. Thatís ridiculous, instead of understand whatís happening and why, we are busy pointing fingers at each other Ė how childish.

            ZZ, Satti has been a part of your culture/religion (?) for a long time, right. So how did it end, I mean it takes time to convince ppl especially illiterate ppl that an act is wrong. Iím just interested in detail about the process.


              Dear Alibeta, You started your thread by saying that pahle apni gireban mein jhanko. Don't you think this applies more to you here than others. I do not see a sentence from ZZ which justifies Sati. But your starting a thread by the topic of 'honour killings, the truth for Rani' does imply that you want to justify honour killings by telling that others are also doing similar things (although ZZ has tried to explain the basic difference between the two). Two negatives do not make a positive (except for in mathematics).


                Originally posted by sabah:
                ZZ, Satti has been a part of your culture/religion (?) for a long time, right. So how did it end, I mean it takes time to convince ppl especially illiterate ppl that an act is wrong. Iím just interested in detail about the process.
                Sabah, it is neither a part of Indian culture nor hindu religion. It is practiced basically in Rajasthan. It has origin in earlier muslim invasions where the invaders thought it proper to kill the male members and rape the females to produce muslim off-springs by force. Of course later on it became an evil and found its way into stories of heroism by Rajasthani womenfolk and became a symbol of love of wife for her husband. But it was never a common practice and is almost dead now.

                If we go into details of this it might spark a hindu-muslim discussion and may divert from the thread. So let us stop here on Sati.


                  It's even before that. It is a rather romantic tale. In fact sati is one of parvati's names.

                  however, it started getting practiced widely in rajasthan during times of invasion. there was other form called 'jauhar' which involved mass suicide in case of defeat.

                  Here is an eye-witness account of sati by medieveal Portuyguese visitor

                  Thereafter she attires herself very richly with all the jewels she possesses, and then distributes to her sons, relatives and friends all the property that remains. Thus arrayed she Mounts on a horse, light grey or quite white if possible, that she may be the better seen of all the people. Mounted on this horse they lead her through the whole city with great rejoicings, until they come back to the very spot where the husband has been burnt, where, they cast a great quantity of wood into the pit itself and on its edge they make a great fire. When it his burnt up somewhat they erect a wooden scaffold with four or five steps where they take her Up just as she is. When she is on the top she turns herself round thereon three times, worshipping towards the direction of sunrise, and, this done, she calls her sons, kindred and friends, and to each she gives a jewel, whereof she has many with her, and in the same way every piece of her clothing until nothing is left except a small piece of cloth with, which she is clothed from the waist down. All this she does and says so firmly, and with such a cheerful countenance, that she seems not about to die. Then she tells the men who are with her on the scaffold to consider what they owe to their wives who, being free to act, yet burn themselves alive for the love of them, and the women she tells to see how much they owe to their husbands' to such a degree as to go with them even to death. Then she ceases speaking, and they place in her hands a pitcher full of oil, and she puts it on her head, and with it she again turns round thrice on the scaffold and again worships towards the rising sun. Then she casts the pitcher of oil into the fire and throws herself after it with as much goodwill as if she were throwing herself on a little cotton, from which she could receive no hurt. The kinsfolk all take part at once and cast into the fire many pitchers of oil and butter which they hold ready for this purpose, and much wood on this, and therewith bursts out such a flame that no more can be seen.


                  All i want to say that it was voluntary death and it is idiotic to compare it with some loser killing his wife and neighbor cuz they talked to each other.


                    Dear all, just caught the tail end of your debate - Ali Beta, you said you didn't know much about honour killings: I found these reports useful, and hopefully fairly objective.

                    I'm new to this board, so i'll briefly introduce myself: I had no real idea about Pakistan until 5 years ago, when i spent a fascinating year teaching English in Khanewal (Nr Multan), which was great for me - nice people, peaceful, interesting, harsh at times - really a life-changing experience (sorry for cliche). Anyway, i then went to university, studied south asian politics (went back to Pak to visit friends in summer holiday), post-grad in south asian & Middle East politics, and i'm now a researcher.

                    I'm still learning about a lot of things, so i hope it'll be okay if I ask you guys stupid questions from time to time.



                      Dear All...

                      Infanticide falls withi the same broad category of persecution of women.

                      The 1991 census in India showed that for every 1000 men there were only 927 women in India. Which means that there are 525 million men in India today and only 475 million women - where are the missing 50 million females???

                      Anybody have comparable figures for PAK?


                        KMalik, after someone gives statistics on Pakistan, you would next target abortion, again putting it into, as you say, broad category of persecution. b.t.w. why don't you listen to Sabah's plain suggestion and stick to the topic in hand. We all agree that India does have many evils, but here we are talking about honour killings or Sati vis-a-vis Honour Killings and nothing more.

                        For your information only a couple of days back ZZ did gave Pak male to female ratio and it was almost the same as that of India and then he commented : 'I wonder what happend to all those Pak females' something like that. Either you are just ignoring that or trying to prove yourself.


                          PAKISTAN, Sex ratio:
                          at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
                          under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
                          15-64 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
                          65 years and over: 0.98 male(s)/female
                          total population: 1.05 male(s)/female (1999 est.)

                          Population: 138,123,359 (July 1999 est.)

                          Age structure:
                          0-14 years: 41% (male 29,423,876; female 27,763,774)
                          15-64 years: 55% (male 38,533,918; female 36,804,592)
                          65 years and over: 4% (male 2,768,942; female 2,828,257) (1999 est.)

                          That makes it about 9.5 million less females, now do you wonder where are the missing females.


                            Welcome to GupShup Plz share your experiences of Pakistan with us and youíre welcome to ask any question about Pak politics or Pak dev. etc.

                            Iím not interested in history of Satti etc. itís the process - the developments between looking at it as a normal custom in a culture to accept it as a crime. I was wondering whether same method could be used on our side of the border.
                            I didnít know what it was, your culture or religion isliye sorry for putting it the way I did

                            [This message has been edited by sabah (edited May 12, 2000).]


                              On second look at your message I understood what you wanted to ask and that my reply is not addressing your query. Frankly speaking I don't think I can explain the evolution of this change, but I will go through some books and try to explain that. May be ZZ can put some light on that.