Are we ready...

[Nova]

Its really a stupid question cause we really are not but...
Do you guys think its time , Pkaistan as a Nation should start seriously thinking about, officially apologizing to the bangladeshi ppl for the atrocities committed by West pakistan ......

[NYAhmadiX]

Nova, the Question is not stupid. You are! (j/k)

Pakistan should have apologized a long ago, but I believe it is still not too late. It will be late say in another 20 or so years, when all of the Soldiers who fought in the ’71 War will probably be dead. It is more appropriate that the apology is made while they are still alive (or some or most of them) so they can die peacefully.

[Nova]

NY ,
Good point about soldiers dying peacefully..
More over, It would be a recognition of our mistakes.... Military, Political and moral..
Nations that need to grow , and sustain pride in themselves have to learn from their msitakes...Denying them is a sure way of repeating them , and continuing downward spiral....

[ZZ]

Bangadeshis have already forgiven you and are busy *****ing about India. Talk of Islamic solidarity. They cheer Pakistan in Indo-Pak matches. Whether or not u apologize the genocide, whether or not you take the Biharis or let them rot in camps, they are collaborating Pak in ISI activities, as admitted by Bangladesh itself. One of the parties lives on spitting venom against India. Despite fighting a war for them in which many Indian soldiers gave their life, all they remember is that Paki tanks were taken away and given to them 'mehanat kaey murgaa, anday khayay fakir'. India had its own selfish reasons, but that doies not take away the fact that Bengalis were saved. No wonder Gandhi failed containing challenge of Muslim communalism. It fails all rationality and logic.

[mohabbat]

Again, it is the almighty/invincible religion why all the atrocities done by Pakistanis were forgiven by Bangladeshis. It is the religion why India is in eye of suspicion. There is no hope..... Cheraym in CHOWK

[ZZ]

It is interesting how long Bangladesh could remain secular. Just four years. Unless under constant 'danda' as in Turkey or Algeria, Muslim majority state can not be secular. This is despite experiencing first-hand the exploitation in the name Islamic unity.
India has to guard. Any region that becomes Muslim majority will fall for this, sooner or later.

[ZZ]

This ungratefulness of neighbors is destiny of India. Look at Lanka. Lanks invite India and let them fight LTTE. Do not keep the word and and back off from political package they agreed to give Tamils. When Indians insist, they arm LTTE. Now they are burning in mess, they want India to save them.
Their interest is basically exploiting India and India should not have any better attitude to them.

[Atif Khan]

Clicked, read and ignored.

------------------
Sarfraz Khan

[Rani]

India should follow an advice given by wise and astute chinese sages 'If you know yourself and know your enemy and you should not fear the result of thousand wars.'

Not knowing enough about ourselves and almost nothing about the mindset of our enemies have contributed to most of the problems we are currently facing.



[This message has been edited by Rani (edited May 19, 2000).]

[Mr Fraudia]

Originally posted by ZZ:
[B]Bangadeshis have already forgiven you and are busy *****ing about India. Talk of Islamic solidarity. They cheer Pakistan in Indo-Pak matches. Whether or not u apologize the genocide, whether or not you take the Biharis or let them rot in camps, they are collaborating Pak in ISI activities, as admitted by Bangladesh itself. One of the parties lives on spitting venom against India. Despite fighting a war for them in which many Indian soldiers gave their life, all they remember is that Paki tanks were taken away and given to them 'mehanat kaey murgaa, anday khayay fakir'. India had its own selfish reasons, but that doies not take away the fact that Bengalis were saved. [B]

ZZ maybe it is because the politics of the region are not driven by populations but by politicians who use the masses.

I am sure just as there are bangladeshis that cheer pakistan, there are those that hate it, just like there are pakistanis and indians that applaud one another and there are those that hate one another.

as far as the alleged intelligence and military activities go, who knows what the reasons are, who knows who all the collaborate with. Intelligence communities work in mysterious ways, what else could explain israeli spies in US etc.

[BombayKid]

Well I wouldn't go so far as to generalize that Bangladeshi's ***** about India. After all it is an Islamic country and so the politics of their parties are on expected lines. There are so many Bangladeshi students in India and they seem to love it. I am not just talking about West Bengal but even in far away places like Maharashtra. They seem to enjoy the country and have not faced any discrimination as Muslims or even Bangladeshis. I don't care if Bangladeshis flood India, so long as they are legal immigrants.
As to the original question, I think those people who gave up their lives to create the nation will obviously feel some hatred towards Pakistan, but I don't think most Bangladeshis do. The Islamic card works pretty well and of course a lot of Pakistanis claim to have the copyright on Islam !

[Nova]

I think we are getting off the topic here....
The question was for pakistanis to apologize, does not matter if bangladeshis have forgiven them already or not...Apology is not only for forgiveness , its also for admitting your own mistakes...
ZZ, why dont you talk about places where India went wrong, and see if they need to accept responsibility.(P.S I doubt if you have the inclination to see the misdeeds of your own country)

[CM]

Nova i will never be able to figure you out.$
On one hand you take an anti Pakistan attitude and then you defend the country.
You must be a girl or a very muddled up guy.
As for the indians and their points.
Any body know about Assam???????
It was an independent kingdom when in 1971 Indian just moved its troops into the kingdom.
Now it is an "intergral" part of Indian like Kashmir.
That is why Bhutan is nervours about opening its borders with india.
If too many indians come into the kingdom, it will be easy for them to take the kingdom by force on the prerequiste that indians are being maltreated.
As for the Bangladeshies, an apology will not erase what we have done.
We should forget and forgive.
End of story.
Anybody remember the qoute by the BD pres the women saying that the Pak BD match during the cricket WC was like winning the 1971 war all over again.

ZZ like a typical indian you use the "Islamic card" over and over again.
Islam is the reason for unity among nations but it is not the only one.
If it was there would be in Iran - Iraq war.
No Afghanistan - Iran conflict.
No Saudi Arabia - Iran conflict.
No Iraq - Kuwait conflict.
No Gulf war.
No Jordan - Syria conflict.
And Kurdish problem.
Your Islamic card thoery as you call it has a lot of holes.
Fix those and then start the discussion again.

[Nova]

CM,
Hahahahahahha....You have managed to offend many girls here..
Coming to the point.....I think you will figure me out fairly quickly..You seem inteligent.
Understanding and accepting mistakes is to help grow as a person , or as a nation.
I love pakistan , thats why I want us to see what didnt go right....So that we can change the course..
Pakistan , like other countries, has great potential, totally not reflected by our current situation..we must be channalizing it in teh wrong direction , and that needs to be changed
Oh and one more thing....My association for my mother land, is not based on the hatred for anyone..

[kmailik]

Nova - back to answering your question..
YES, Pakistan should apologise to Bangladesh - BUT NOT YET. Some of my thoughts and reasons:-

1) Bengali Muslims (in the east) were in the forefront of the Paksitan movement, and in bigger numbers for the creation of Pakistan THAN Punjabi's, Sindhi's etc (in the west).

2)East Pakistan was 56% of Pakistan's population BUT was denied its due share in the political, economic and social administration of the whole country, by a Punjabi-Pakhtoon conspiracy to keep Pakistan in the hands of high-caste upstarts in this group.

3) Bengali grievances about West Pakistani domination WERE encouraged and supported by the Indian's, including creation of the Mukhti Bahini.

4) The Pakistani military DID commit atrocities against the people of East Pakistan - numbers range from 1 to 3 million!

5) BUT without the help of the Indian military the Pakistani military would never have lost East Pakistan. Though it would have been put under martial law, and its separatists leaders would have been executed etc.

6) Though, had Pakistan remained a proper fuctioning democracy with all the due rights to the east ( i.e. in effect Bengali rule over all of Pakistan) east and west Pakistan would have gone their separate ways anyway - not because of a lack of Islamic solidarity BUT because of the sheer impossibilty of running a country whose two halves are geographically separated by 1200 miles - even if we were on friendly terms with India - THERE HAS NEVER BEEN AN EXAMPLE OF A COUNTRY THAT HAS SURVIVED SUCH GEOGRAPHICAL CONSTRAINTS!

7) The separation of Pakistan in 1971 has been good for both countries - they can no longer blame each other for their mistakes, BUT can still continue as two separate and independent states with Islam as their guiding light - which is good for them and for Islam in the long term.

My objection to Pakistan apologising for atrocities up to 1971 against East Pakistani (at this stage), is because a formal apology would open up a legal and political nightmare for Pakistan. An official apology opens up the door for aggrieved Bangladeshi's to sue the government of Pakistan for reparations.
Take some examples of other countries which have also refused tp apologise for atrocities they are believed to have committed:-

- Turkey has refused to acknowledge (let alone apologise)the 1912-15 genocide of up to 1.5 million Armenians.
- USA has never apologised for taking part in the the slaughter of 3 million Vietnamese between 1962-73.
- Japan has never apologised for the brutal 'rape of Nanking' and other atrocities committed across Eastern China, which led to the deaths of 10 million Chinese! in the 1930's and 40's.
- Israel has never acknowledged it expelled 1.5 to 2 million Arabs from Palestine after 1948.
- The USA has never acknowledged (let alone apologise) for recent stories about massacres they committed in Korea in 1951.
- France has never acknowleged or apologised for the killing of upto 1 million Algerians in the 1950's war of independence there.
- The Indian government has never formally apologised for the massacre of thousands of Sikhs and the desecration of theie holy places in the storming of the Golden Temple.

And there are many more modern day exmaples of other countries (western and eastern, first world and third world, Christian, Jewish and Islamic etc) that have not apologised for atrocities, massacres, persecution etc, BECAUSE of a fear huge legal claims for reparations.
Countries which have apologised for CERTAIN atrocities etc, have always landed themselves with huge legal wrangles for reparation i.e Germany and Japan.

Pakistan cannot afford being dragged through the world's courts by thousands of Bangladeshi's wanting reparations etc. Instead Pakistan and Bangladesh should set up two intergovernmental committees - one to look at the governance of Pakistan between 1947-71 and determine the true nature of the intra-Pakistani relationship, and the second committee (something like a truth and reconciliation committe as in South Africa)to look at the terrible events leading up to the creation of Bangladesh in 1971.

CM - with respect to you (and to be fair to our Indian neighbours), Assam was NEVER an indpendent kingdom which was invaded by India in 1971. I think you mean SIKKIM - which was an independent state (but under Indian protection), and was annexed by India in 1975! Only China refuses to recognise this annexation...



[This message has been edited by kmailik (edited May 20, 2000).]