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I HATE you because you're Pakistani/Indian... (delete the applicable one)

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    I HATE you because you're Pakistani/Indian... (delete the applicable one)

    I hope the title of this topic will bear relevance to the rest of the mail contained within here. This would be a novelty in itself, making this folder perhaps unique to the others.

    This is because everything mentioned in my first posting about Kashmir was illustrated within that folder. No one was interested in the topic of the discussion. It merely provided all the Indians and Pakistanis with another platform on which they could voice their hatred for one another. It's petty.

    Boys and girls, your behaviour is frankly pathetic. No one is interested in proper acadmic, intellectual debate. On the contrary this platform is providing many of you with a medium for mind numbing entertainmnet on which you can air your hatred for one another.

    Mankind will forever be condemned by the mentality of people such as yourselves. This Pakistani idea of 'Everything is India's fault' (and vice versa) is typical of the mentality displayed by Hitler when everything was the fault of the Jews.

    The world is continually hampered by bigotry and closed minds. War begins in the minds of men such as you. Hate consumes your hearts and thought. As war begins in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defences of peace must first be constructed.

    Godfather I agree. The denates of india-pakistan issue are always in this vicious circle and end with people just cursing one another out. People stray too far off the topic to somehow illustrate their point. It never goes to, oh yeah i see what u are saying and although its my country and I love it, but this action was wrong etc. What we wind up doing is that once we see that the other person has a valid point we drag their dirty laundry out... oh yeah u think we are bad well take a look at this..
    Thats the general attitude and thats why I rarely post here now.
    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone.


      Originally posted by Fraudz:

      Thats the general attitude and thats why I rarely post here now.
      thank you very much Mr. Fraudia, you are the first person on this site from whom I have read any sort of rational response. I have been reading on this site for a long time but have merely restrained myself from becomming involved in the petty bickering that ensues here.

      It is also interesting to note the lack of people reply to this mail as the truth often hurts the more than anything. So come on all the fighters, where is your argument now?


        In past Nova tried to bring about some real political and ideological debate which extended beyond national lines and separatuons by faith. He did not get much response because people had nothing to say.

        Xfactor wrote in some post that its irritating to see armchair politicians with limited substance to their political ideology and aptitude. I agree with that.
        (apologize for the paraphrase X)

        We do need to admit as a group when a topic is going offcourse or the intent and spirit of discussion has changed due to unrelated mess being thrown in there. We also then need to step back to the original discussion.

        So there are a multitude of issues and are all somehow related, but it should not prevent the better debators to lose the intent of the thread.

        As far as the johnny come lately, I am a political icon and a ideological brainiac types go...I ignore their posts anyways. It is irritating to see that some kids can spoil a grown up conversation.
        The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone.


          I liked the analogy made in Peter Jennings program. India and Pakistan are like divorced couple. Whatever they do they keep looking at past and not at future.



            Dear Godfather. Before I say something here, I would like to know what your nationality is. Secondly, donít jump the Guns. You only posted this yesterday; there will be lot of replies and comments about this topic. You are so impatient, almost of Gandhian magnitude. Easy.

            The reason people donít participate in certain discussions is not because they donít have much to say, but it could be that they read the original post and move their chin up and down thinking, yeah, that is a valid point. In terms of animosity between Indians and Pakistanis, I see that as a healthy and a ďmatureĒ attribute. A little emotional fingerprinting towards each other is not all that bad. This is one way of learning about each other, which will force both sides to sit down and look for solutions. Look at the understanding between China and India. If there ever is any war between the two, only God knows what both sides will do to each other.

            I am of the opinion that verbal fighting among Pakistan/India is not all that bad. Given their common ancestry and heritage, it is only natural.

            Finally, Indians and Pakistanis donít hate each other. They hate each othersí guts. Which is different than hating one another.


              mohabbat, its an interesting analogy. If we go deeper into it, the question arises..why are we bent on looking at past and not future. Is it because past has a stronger position in our national psyche than the future?

              Is it because as individual nations we are afraid of the future, and then, is it because we do realize that as friends or foes, our future is still tied together.

              The amount of hostility and mistrust keeping us from painting a good or clear picture of what the future could be like. Thus people who are not satisfied with the present, are scared of the future (or unsure) tend to live in past.

              ..and past has its share of ugliness and problems but thats all people have to go by.

              My analogy for this situation is of kids fighting, they keep fighting without rationalizing the situation and their behaviour or who has what valid point.

              I am usually disappointed at the overall immaturity of both nations on this topic.
              The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone.


                It is because of the bloody partition. Because many people lost their loved ones, belongings, houses and were displaced and moved from one place to the other. They saw Muslims killing Hindus, Hindus killing Muslims on their journey. They passed on this hatred to the next generation and so on.

                Note that partition of India in the Bengal province was not as bloody. There were not that many killings in Bengal as they were in Punjab. The percentage of Hindus in present Bangladesh is still high (around 15%, it was more during 1948). So, you see there is not that much hatred between West Bengal and Bangladesh.

                But in West Pakistan, Hindu population was close to 35% and now it's less than 1%.

                US and Cuba are enemies but ask any average American whether he hates Cubans, he would say No. Same is the case with Cubans. It is only the politics. But that is not the case with Indians and Pakistanis. There is animosity between Indians and Pakistanis accept it or not. There could be various reasons, India was repeatedly invaded by Muslim rulers, Conversion of Hindus to Islam, Fear of Hindus dominating Muslims after Muslims ruling India for centuries.

                India and China are enemies, but no Indian would hate Chinese or Chinese would hate Indian. You hardly hear of Anti-India propoganda from Chinese community in US or vice-versa. But where ever you go Indians and Pakistanis would at least verbally attack each other.

                This is inspite India-Pakistan share the same language, culture, food, traditions etc.Indians have cousins and relatives in Pakistan and vice versa. Pakistanis watch Indian films, listen Indian ghazals buy Indian groceries and Indians watch Pakistani newspapers, magazines, PTV dramas.

                So this is a very complex issue. It is very difficult to be friends but they have to learn to live together.


                  British did play a major role in creating divisions between Hindus and Muslims. Division of Bengal on religious line is one example. British succeeded in "DIVIDE AND RULE" policy. Now America, China will play a role in seeing that India and Pakistan dont get along. China would be scared if India and Pakistan get along and form one country with Bangladesh. They support Pakistan to keep the balance. All politics...


                    Well, I agree with what NYA is saying here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with little verbal duels. And I don't think they are immature at all (well most of them at least). It's all nice to take a holier than thou attitude and say that you're fighting like kids. If people can't take it they shouldn't post. It's fine so long as people don't get personal and even if they do get a bit personal it's fine to an extent. Some of you don't like your religious beliefs to be questioned, so I think a line should be drawn there. Personally I don't care if anyone abuses the Hindu religion or points out its weaknesses -- in fact I think its pretty healthy but obviously some people do not like religious beliefs being questioned.
                    So basically I think y'all must get off your high horse and let people post what they want (within limits). People like Mr. Xtreme or Ehsan may post a few inflammatory posts but at least they are passionate about what they believe in and are not fence sitters like a few others !!


                      This appeared in Los Angeles Times and is relevant to the current topic
                      I emigrated to the U.S. from India over 30 years ago. It took me more than 20 years to rid myself of the hatred that most Indians feel toward Pakistan and vice versa. Indians and Pakistanis have a lot in common. We are the same people, with a rich heritage of culture and learning. Politicians from both countries, aided and abetted by colonialists past and present, benefit from keeping the two nations divided.
                      I, too, have a dream. For peace and prosperity to reign in the region, a United States of South Asia consisting of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan and India needs to be established and nurtured. American citizens of ethnic origin from these nations can start this movement here, away from the daily propaganda of hate being fed to the citizens of these countries. President Clinton should take advantage of his trip to the region to start a dialogue. The potential for prosperity in the region is mind-boggling, if trade and commerce could take the place of ever-escalating hate and hostilities.
                      JAMSHED H. DASTUR
                      Balboa Island


                        Dear friends and foes,

                        Firstly let me say a hearty 'well said' to Bombaykid and NYAhmadi. Two people who I can count on to give their real views and thus produce a meaningful debate/flame excercise.

                        It would probably surprise many of you to meet me in real life, and it might surprise some of you still further to know that I a play in a football/soccer team with four Indians in it. That's because I know that what happens on the political scene is not the fault of individuals. I said this before somewhere that in a private sphere I could quite easily be friends with some of the Indians here.

                        The Onion bhaji thread for examp-le, was not originally meant as a personal attack on Rani, but an attempt to show that if she was prepared to stay away from politics we could have a normal conversation about normal things. But obviously that isn't what she is about.

                        Now dear Godfather,

                        you have made a very nice speech about general ettiquette and attitudes. But the test comes when you actually try to debate something. Go ahead, pick an issue and we will give it sincere consideration. When we get down to serious stuff though it's not as easy as it looks. Unless you want to discuss onion bhajis.


                          Thinking about India, Pakistan unification is
                          like talking about a task which is unsightly ,irrevocable, and unachieveable, therefore, no use in debating on this particular issue.
                          I'ld give this idea an equal chance of survivabilty as a snowball's chances of not melting in hell.
                          I believe that both nations can prosper more while staying independent, providing that Pakistan/India relations improve sometime in future.
                          The only thing I am intrigued to find out is ; what drew Indian people to this forum, in order to make friendly nature of this thread to continue, I am going to consider their fascination with Pakistani people. I don't carry any grudge against Indians in general, I've met some very fine Indian people whom I was keen to meet. I think some of the harsh comments come into discussion as preservence of ideoligies surpasses over any meager friendly feelings we have for each other, consequently , leading to clashes in debate.


                            Ok, it would appear that many questions have been asked here, to which I would like to reply. Firstly someone asked me my nationality. By passport I am British, I live here and was born here. By heritage I am from Pakistan.

                            We must be careful when we speak of passion. To be passionate about something is wonderful, it is a blessing and inspires a love for the subject. However whilst being passionate we must avoid becomming emotional. By doing so we revert back to our animal instincts and lose all sense of rationality. Animals are irrational, humans (in general) aren't, this is what distinguishes us from them.

                            Healthy constructive debate is perhaps the most liberating force in the world. As it spurns from education we can all learn from one another.

                            Ofcourse if India and Pakistan were to unite their economies they could become the most powerful economic agent in the world. Agencies such as the EMU (European Monetary Union) would fade into oblivion. Consequently, it is not desirable from the Western point of view to encourage economic development too heavily in these countries, unless ofcourse it benefits them.

                            I would hope that through understanding these two countries will move forward. I am sorry if at first I have appeared arrogant or at least to be looking down from a moral pedestal on the regular posters. This was not my intention. I merely wanted to promote highly charged - yet intellectual - debate.

                            I am in no way dispassionate about the topics. Being only 18 I still have a lot to learn and whilst reading Politics, Philosophy and Economics at University I hope to some day unlock the barrier dividing these two massive countries with inexplicable potential at their behest.

                            In closing I must admit I like the analogy of Pakistan and India being like a divorced couple. Pakistan Zindabad.


                              Dear Godfather,
                              I think its just that we were all tired of being asked to "grow up" every once in a while. We're all grown ups in here (never mind my nic ) and we're just voicing our opinions. I know you mean well. But we (at least some of us) feel that being emotional is not that bad a thing. In fact at many times it is difficult to really think in a very impartial manner unless as Mr. Xtreme pointed out -- you only want to discuss the merits of onion bhaji .
                              In a way subconciously, you have also given a biased opinion by saying that the Kashmir issue is very simple to solve by just asking the people to decide. So for you obviously its just a black and white issue. But thats understandable but similarly you should understand that we (that is the "extremists") too have our views and we believe in them strongly, and so long as we don't propogate hate against each other, its perfectly fine and within the scope of a "decent and meaningful debate".