Situation In Indus Valley

[Farid]

I have just came from Pakistan and believe me things have not changed much even after the take over of so called “honest” people since last four months. There seems to be hostile attitude of military rulers in Sindh province. Even some of the honest people were made targeted by NAB (National Accountability Bureau) . There has been sense of harassment among bureaucracy and administration in the province. Military rulers think that people living in this unfortunate province are their slaves and captive and they can kick the ass of any person living there. Where as they dare not think to take any such action in Punjab and NWFP.

Thousands of young people are being retrenched from Steel Mill and other established institutions. Many qualified young people are unemployed and forced to commit suicide every day.


Perhaps the condition of Sindh province is worse than Kashmir. People who are singing the song of Kashmir look at their own brethren who are victim of atrocities of their own army.


As I already said, CE should announce election schedule without delay otherwise India is going to respond heavily with playing Sindh Card sooner or later.


Farid M

[ZZ]

Hi sher khan, what about right of self-determination to the people of pakistan, at least of choosing the govt.

[sabah]

Hello Farid, welcome back

Nice to get some feedback from Sindh. There are several points to discuss in your post, but that’ll not be possible if we get emotional. Can you plz shed some more light over things, as we have lost enough to ignore even a false alarm.

I’m not challenging you info, however I have a sister in Karachi and family in Punjab, they have different feedback then yours. I understand that Altaf is playing with his rotten cards again, and it’s amazing that ppl still believe in him, but that’s politics I guess.

What is hostile attitude, and which honest ppl are being targeted by NAB?

>>Where as they dare not think to take any such action in Punjab and NWFP. <<
I know our enemies have always played with ’Punjabis think they are superior card’, and it works every time, just like sunni-shia card works. However ppl like you should be able to see through things and shouldn’t make it as one province against the other problem. I know that MQM was calling for strike, and withdrew it, as they wanted to the Gov. to change its stands. If that is the problem you should bring it up like that, we can discuss it and even actively ’tell’ the Gen that we are against this action. But that is if you can explain what the problem is etc.

>>Many qualified young people are unemployed and forced to commit suicide every day. <<
That’s sad, however we have had that problem for decades now, and it can’t be erased in four moths, give him some more time. You don’t create jobs just like that na. As for the Sindh provincial problem, is there a possibility that the problems will be ’controlled’ with the new law more power to provinces?

>>Perhaps the condition of Sindh province is worse than Kashmir. People who are singing the song of Kashmir look at their own brethren who are victim of atrocities of their own army. <<
This is so un-fair Farid; you are comparing materialistic needs with basic human rights. I understand that you must be angry, lekin plz calm down we don’t need that, what we need is that we stay together on this, and work on our problems, without making wholes that can be used from outside.

>>As I already said, CE should announce election schedule without delay otherwise India is going to respond heavily with playing Sindh Card sooner or later.<<

Can you mention one person who is capable of fulfilling the work he has triggered? Never has there been so much activity in Pak, sure he will and probably is making mistakes, but that we should criticize and bring to the responsible ppl’s attention, with a thanda dimagh And let’s be helpful to create an environment for healthy and honest elections – so the Army never need to teach us what a nation means again.

As for India will play on that card, sure it will, but I guess there is another interesting card for India so Sindh may not be so interesting for them anymore, but then again I could be wrong.

You’ve mentioned following problems:
Army’s attitude, and job in Sindh,
Steel mills and un-employment,
Kashmir vs. Sindh
Punjabi and Sindhi.
These need to be discussed separately in order to understand them fully.

[dhir]

Sabah ji, what you have said may also be true. In fact no two individuals can have same opinion on every aspect of life. What you both say may be partially true, it is like that story of an elephant and four blinds, all of them see the elephant from a different angle. In fact we all are blinds as we do not have full facts before us.

Regarding army teaching how to be a good nation, what makes you think that army is a good teacher and whatever it do is always right. Sometimes, it may backfire.

[Thakur]

Farid, if you and your lot don't like Pakistan, please just take your [potli], and get the hell out. We can use the food and resources for other people, who are willing to work for a better future, instead of sitting around moping, whining, grumbling and issuing THREATs against Pakistan's solidarity.

Its now become a culture thing with MQM. They have to moan, or else they won't be able to [hazam] their food. Fine, go do that someplace else. There are plenty of Urdu speaking people, who are doing well in Pakistan. The [firkaband], [fitnah-perwar] and murderous thugs, aka MQM don't like the army twisting their ear and MAKING them behave. Well, tough cookie for you. A lot should have been done earlier, instead of placating you all for decades. I am sure there will be some tantarums, when the MQM are weaned off their ways and people will bad-mouth the CE. We should ignore them completely. Push the mute button...see them, but don't hear 'em.

Only the army, is a fit ruler. They have the steel toed boots, to make everyone toe the line. It was only the army that could squeeze the necks of the pigs that ate Pakistan dry. Now look at Sehgal: He is [jutiyan chatkhata phirr'ing] in courts. Exactly where he should have been, the first time he defrauded the govt. of billions in tax rupees.

Aside from appointing a prostitute as the Ambassador of Pakistan in the USA, the C.E. has done a swell job. He is an urdu speaking guy, and he advanced to a full general in the Punjab force. The army is the best institution in Pakistan. It is as unbiased, as they come. That is the reason, why army should REMAIN in power, until the Pakistani people are fit to rule in a democratic system of governance.


Thakur

[sabah]

Thakur
Zid meiN to insaan khuda se bhi munkir ho jaate hai. The way you’ve just tried to convince Farid, to either leave or accept the existing conditions in Pak, is ehhhh you find the word. How can you say that? We need every single Pakistani to work for Pak’s betterment and if someone is having problems, be it misunderstanding or real problems, he/she should be encouraged to talk about them publicly, and should not be ’forced’ to pretend as if nothing is going on.

You could also ask Farid to explain and or prove what he is saying – from his earlier post I can assure you that this man is not an idiot. Listen to him, and let him listen to you. Re. MQM, true but your way of convincing is not ideal.

Farid
I hope you can ignore what should be ignored and look into problems in order to find a solution and not to let it spread.

[SaeedAfridi]

Guys,

Let try to understand that the military is not an instrument precision. Its a jagged edge.

The problem is that the prevailing situation could not have been allowed to deteriorate. We have to also give thought to the fact that in the military only the red collar top brass (Brigadier and above) have had enough exposure to administration for them to even think about tackling the longterm running of departments.

Military men are very pro active in approach, caution is exercised but an "absolutely neccessary" stage.
Hence, the key words in assessing how well they are doing, is in an examination of how the general working culture has changed.
Don't look for end goals, they have not been there for that long. This is an exercise of containment. So, look for a shift in cultural and working practices of institutions that are under scrutiny.

Pakistan does not have the luxury of tolerating non directional leadership for long. We do not have the indeginous resources that India, Iran or China has, so we can not have decades of stuttered growth. India can go through a period of nationalism and retreat politics, bundled up to mask deep rooted issues of corruption..... we can not. We need to stream line our beauracracy and tone our civil service. Provincial duplication of many services adds to info-redundancy and checks fluency. The government has been looking at the problem since Junejo's time, but democratic institutions require exhaustive debate and lengthy judicial proceeding according to a constitution that helps to breed these entities.

Its a hard job, I just hope that the military is able to put a dent into it before they leave.

Khudai pa amaan
Saeed Afridi

[SaeedAfridi]

Farid,

I just checked with a relative at the Steel Mill .........

What redundancies and what forced unemployment.

There have only been two problems is a IDCB (Inter Station Conveyor Belt) worker's strike action to refuse the loadings for less than the rate inpositioned by the Mill two years ago .........

Secondly, the workers allotted employment but no working schedules, (a very interesting situation created by the Karachi Authorities and teh Mill's management) were redirected to the Karachi Docks.

In all last year has seen less labour turnover than the previous 9 years.

Please let me know where you got your info from........ It would be of great interest ????????????????

[Farid]

Sabah,

Thanks for welcoming me back. I am happy that there is at least one person who remembered me. Here is the news excerpt taken from Dawn of Feb 02, 2000

Pakistan Steel sacks 334 officers

"According to Pakistan Steel Mill officers, those removed were amongst the first batch of 2,200 officers, which the management proposes to lay off without a show-cause notice within the next few days. All these officers had been reinstated in service in 1994 by former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, after they had been removed from service by Nawaz Sharif's government in July 1992.

The letter of termination issued by the management gave no reason for removal, and simply mentioned that officer were being advanced salaries for the next six months. Efforts to obtain the version of the chairman Pakistan Steel Mills, Col Mohammad Afzal Khan, were unsuccessful, since no one attended his telephone. “


Rulers never dare to terminate people from Punjab like that.


Here I am not talking about MQM. I am talking about how the officials in Sindh are being made captive by military people. I have visited some of them where a military guy is holding his gun outside of his office and watching the movement of that official. You can read in the news paper how officials are nabbed by NAB without authority and sent to jail without giving the poor guy to defend himself. I personally knew few victims, who had lived their lives very honestly were humiliated by the low ranking military personnel.

Do you think that people working in military are honest? Do they have courage to wipe out the corruption from society? Have you seen the performance of past military rulers? Do you think military has Aladin’s majic lamp to set things right? Let the military do what they are trained for. Leave the politics for politicians. There job is only to defend the borders of the country not kicking asses of people of province whose representation in army and other key institutions has always been denied.

FARID M

[NYAhmadiX]

I don’t have any interest (not verbatim, and needless to say that I am very interested in Pakistan affairs) in this particular thread and the discussion here. I just want to point out to a very platitudinous misconception.

“Indus Valley” and the “Province of Sindh” cannot be used interchangeably. The province of Sindh is only a small part of the Indus Valley. In topographic terms, Indus Valley comprises 1/4 th of India (north-western) and a big chunk of Pakistan.


[This message has been edited by NYAhmadi (edited February 28, 2000).]

[Mr Xtreme]

Farid

As I understand it you are a Bengali who believes that Pakistan should not have been created. The fact that you sided with Realpaki when he first came to this forum does not do you any favours.

Thakur

the appointment of a prostitute to the Embassy in America was a smart move. Look how Monika nearly brought down Clinton. The only reason she didn't was b/c Americans have the moral fibre of Jerry Springer.

The only reason Pakistan is still here is b/c it's army is made of sterner stuff than the average Pak emigrant. That's why India will never dare to carry out it's hollow threats to re-take Azad Kashmir. I know genuine Kashmiris (from the Pak side) and they tell me that the average Kashmiri home has more military hardware than some army barracks. I'm not just talking about AK47's either. We are talking missile technology. How do you think the planes and coptors were brought down when India tried to invde Pak airspace?

Fact is, only Nawaz's puppet-jerk show to Clinton saved India from a complete humiliation in Kargil. That's why Musharraf kicked his fat butt into the cooler

Pak army is the real deal. That's why we are world players and that's why BJP is trying to copy our militancy despite the fact that their religion preaches vegetarianism and "spirituality". What a bunch of pathetic hypocrites.

[Thakur]

Farid is a Bengali. Well, that explains everything. I am currently half-way through a most interesting book by the Commander of the East Pakistan forces in East Pakistan, in 1971, Gen. AA Niazi. This Military Cross and Sitara-e-Jurrat winning sheer of Pakistan(His military nickname is "Tiger") Armed Forces explain in detail, how the Bengalis turned on them and conspired with the enemy to make their task of defending East Pakistan, virtually impossible. The book's title is "The Betrayal of East Pakistan".

This general unlike the corrupt Yahya Khan and idiots like Tikka Khan, did his job to the best of his abilities and managed no small feats during the time he was there. He wrote this first book about East Pakistan after 27 years of silence, in 1998. It is a must read for all Pakistanis, to understand why we lost East Pakistan. All the crap about mass rapes and pillaging are invalidated and proven false, by virtue of fact, figures and
logic, unlike the Bengalis and MQM who live by myth and fancy story-telling.

Yes, the steel mill workers have been fired. Do you care to know WHY Mr. Farid ?. Because in 1994 Benazir Bhutto(BB), pushed in all of the Sindhis who turned out the vote for her. It was payback time and poor Steel Mill had to accept Sindhis who wished to stay home and expected to recieve their paychecks on time, like clockwork. Tell me, do you know how much profit the steel mill has made Mr. Farid ?. What ?, I can't hear you. NONE you say ?. Nada, zip, bupkis! ?. No, there is more. The steel mill has never shown a single quarter of profit, in a decade+. Its billions of rupees in the red.

What do you think happens to bloated organisations, that are in the red ?. How do you think, they are made more profitable ?. Would you like me to tell you, how they do it here in the US ?. I'll tell you. Its called "Downsizing". Companies cut off the pork and make themselves leaner. The steel mill is NOT a jageer of Sindhi waderas, or their chamchas. It should be run like a profitable institution, which demands that you shed excess baggage, thats holding you down. Its business, not politics...chanda.

The workers, or should I say, the free-loaders who are now being off-loaded, should get to work. Yes, it will be difficult at first, adjusting to the 8 hour workday. But if Pakistan is going to get moving, people have to get out of the wagon and start pushing, instead of sitting inside, eating grapes and patting their large bloated stomachs. Khaaney peeney ka zamana geya. Now its time to get up and go to work.

X-treme, Kashmiri's and Pakistani commandos up there, have to make the Indian oppressors pay a heavy price in money and men, if they are going to continue their reign of terror in that region. I would recommend and support making guerilla attacks on tourists on the Kashmir occupied side, to inhibit normal operations there. When foreign capital dries out, it would be another incentive lost, for the Indians to continue their illegal squatting campaign of Kashmir.

This latest barbaric act of Indian aggression should have dire consequences for them, lest we invite further unprovoked acts of this kind(Indian Commandos mutilate 14 pakistanis in village in Pakistan near LoC). Eent ka jawab pather sey diya jana cha-hiyea, taakey aagey unki jurrat na parrey, esi herkat kerney kee.

As for the Hindu naysayers in here...I was on a Serb site, during the Kosovo Crises, and the unmitigated gall of those people, the uncanny ability to glaze over, when confronted with the truth on the ground, mirrors the attitude and modus ope***** of these people on here and on countless other forums. It is pathetic denial, all the way. Even when the soldiers unearthed mass graves in Serbia, we had Serbs on that site, saying that these were dolls that NATO had planted...and I mean I have confronted PhD scientists from Serbia, who believe that nonsence. Education does not seem to help these people. They want so desperatly to cling to their image of their homeland, that they cannot handle the truth...even when its on their nose. What can you do ?, ::shrug:: pity them, I suppose.


Thakur

[ZZ]

well.. the question is not perhaps about downsizing. there must be several things worth downsizing in Pakland, including govt. itself. Sindhies perhaps feel discriminated since only PSUs in Sindh are targetted.

when downsizing starts in all provinces across board, they will not feel targetted. let us see if that happens.

[sabah]

Xtreme, could plz write me a mail?

Thakur, after that book, try Sadik Salik’s Witness to surrender.

Farid
>>Do you think that people working in military are honest? <<
There are gande ande every were, and Pak Army is no exception. However the majority alhamdulillah is honest.

>>Do they have courage to wipe out the corruption from society? <<
They can start a process which common Pakistanis have to complete – The problem is that others were not even tried, I remember that ’qarz utaro mulk saNwaro movement’ these armed men supported with their salaries, probably cuz they believed in that politician, and how much ’mulk saNwaro’ had he done? The first thing his son did after the father got arrested was to ask Vajpaye for help, what proud politician would let his son do this?

>>Have you seen the performance of past military rulers? <<
Yes I have seen index reports, development in agriculture and other fields, even on personal level ppl are improving their acts. There are a few examples from my own village too.


>>Do you think military has Aladin’s majic lamp to set things right?<<
No, and that’s why we need to give them some more time, help them or criticize them, but not by hating them, or by letting foreigners in.

>>Let the military do what they are trained for. Leave the politics for politicians.<<
Agree, but then politicians should do their job, and we should do ours. And we do have a lot of responsibilities re our country, from which on is loyalty. A nation where less then 30% uses their vote, tells alot about their trust in their politicians.

>>There job is only to defend the borders of the country not kicking asses of people of province whose representation in army and other key institutions has always been denied.<<

Pak army has always done more for Pak inside Pak as well as on borders then any other politician, and you know that. Yeah we lost Bangla under military rule, but not because we couldn’t fight, we made political mistakes, and we had too many racists in army and among civilians. Was it Army’s responsibility to do that ’bhal safai’? Just the other day, I was listening to Gen. Musharaf’s speech, and he said that army jawans could be used to educate ppl, like in schools. He said something like ’woh blackboard pakaR ke jagah jagah khaRe ho sakte haiN’. Now this isn’t their job either, and I don’t think that anyone would object on this sort of use of our army.

Re. rep. Denied I personally know a few Sindhis in armed forces, one of them is family. But there has to be something about it since you’re mentioning it. Are you sure it is correct, if so what are Sindhis doing about it?

[Farid]

Mr. Thakur

Do you believe what that SOB has written in his book is true? He was the most coward and stupid person in the Muslim history, who and his 95000 mujahid’s laid arm before General Manik Shaw. Instead of ZA Bhutto, he should have been hanged for breakup of Pakistan and humiliating the Muslim nation. I do not want to go again in detail, that ******* hero of yours was responsible for killing of 3 million Muslim Bengalis and rapping of Bengali Muslim women who gave birth to 30000 illegitimate children. Get your history corrected by reading books, newspapers and magazines from a good library.

Which organization in Pakistan has ever run in a profit? According to your analogy, Defense is the major culprit making the Pakistani budget in deficit. Tell me why huge expenditure on it is justified? Sindhis have equal rights to live in Pakistan like stupid people like you. Since you belong to Punjab does not mean that you usurp the rights of small provinces and violate human rights. Had Quaid-e-Azam lived to this day, he would not have dared to create Pakistan for looters like you.

Don’t give me a **** about down sizing. From your post you seem to hate Sindhis and Muhajirs. Basically you are a racist and piece of **** who has no values except beliefs in hate theories.

Last but not the least why you are giving bad names to Indians who are more knowledgeable and decent people than you are. If you are a man, write with your correct identity.

Farid