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    Pakistan vs. India

    Incredible
    yes it is incredible to see how pakistanis and indians can quarrel and make all kinds of arguments to justify killing of kashmiris or violation of human rights of hindus/muslims and women when NOBODY is in any position to critisize the other.
    WAKE UP CALL : grow up will ya !!!
    I have visited this forum a few times and must admit that as interesting the topics are it is the same old same old story of putting the blame on the next guy in line, or in Pakistan and India's case putting the blame on eachother. WHAT A VICOUS CIRCLE
    Do u have any idea of how ridicoulus we seem to all of the western world.
    When the danish people ask me how come Pakistan and India can't work out their differences!!! What else can I say exept that : we've got nothing else to live for than to waste our time hating eachother !!!
    So many of us live abroad and have seen how these people have fought their battles and now have settled down in peace to enjoy life then how come we can't use this knowledge to improve Pakistan and India.
    U could ask how come India matters to me at all if I'm a pakastani. Well yeah I am a pakastani but I'm also a pakastani who sees the indians as human beings who make just as many mistakes as the rest of us.
    This is not about who is better than who ! It's about having and giving the oppertunity to have a good and decent life.
    How many pakistanis/indians really wanna go into war ?? Not that many but the problem is that those warloving people are the only ones that the western world sees.
    In one of the topics by realpaki he/she said that pakistanis are looting their own country etc etc. well then can anyone explain to me that how come widows in India are still treated as if they were NOBODY ????
    These poor women are treated like dirt without any sane reason, then how come the same people cry over why Pakistan is helping the kashmiris who are being looted, hassled and killed every day by the indian troopers.
    Both countries can find faults in eachother but instead of wasting time finding those faults it's much more appropiate and wise to do something about it.
    ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS

    #2
    >>the same people cry over why Pakistan is helping the kashmiris who are being looted, hassled and killed every day by the indian troopers>>

    Indian troops are in Kashmir because of the proxy war waged by Pakistan. I have visited Kashmir many times before 1990, Kashmiris had (and continues to have) all the relgious freedom and valley was very peaceful place.

    If you care about Kashmiris as you claim, ask your government to stop the proxy war, so that Indian troops can go back to barracks and Kashmiris can live in peace. India is five times bigger and will never give up Kashmir regardless of Jehadis who love to fight with non-muslim.



    [This message has been edited by Rani (edited February 23, 2000).]

    Comment


      #3
      Baccha logon nay abhi tak tahzeeb ya tameez naheen seekhi hai logon say baat karnay ki. thats why all phadda here.

      if you cant beat them, join them..aap bhi gaali galooch shuroo kar dain. meri toh poori tayaari hai.

      Nawazish Karam Shukriya Meherbaani

      Comment


        #4
        Everybody speaks from his own situation. And so the Danish people. People who try to teach us the civilized ways were themselves barbarians in the past. And the same people built themselves by plundering our resources. So they can shut their mouths now and watch the show. LOL

        Fata Morgana

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          #5
          Rani
          Normally Iíd go bananas over your reply and start telling you what your jawans are doing and blah blah, but Iíve said that millions of times before and youíve said this before hai na. That is an easy reply, we can just cut and paste it from any other thread, no challenge...

          So lets try and change the tune, and see if can come closerÖ

          I think youíve said this Ē I have visited Kashmir many times before 1990 Ē before, there have been problems in Kashmir from the beginning, yeah the situation got worse during last decade, but why? 1990 was just a couple of years before BB, and itís needless to say that she was and is a blood sucker, so how could she have supported any group Ė she didnít even support Pakistan. We are now openly supporting Kashmir Mujahedeen Ė you may call it politics we call it support to our Muslim brothers and sisters. The way we are handling the situation is not perfect and if things keep developing the way they are, both nations will end up in a war, and honestly I donít think that we want it. However if we let our ppl think that war is the only solution, most of us will support it.

          I was discussing Chechnya with my Mum yesterday, sheís not interested in politics at all, and she said although young and old Muslims are getting killed Chechnya, Iím glad that they arenít raping women and arenít killing babies like in Kashmir. When I told her that they are doing all these honorable things in Chechnya too and Muslims are joining them in their Jihad not as in Kashmir but they are, she was little relaxed. The point is that for most of us who donít care about politics or history of this and that, the barbarity and torture determine whom we will support. Mujahedeen fighting in Kashmir are not just from Pak, they come from different countries, they may or may not know about our history, and may or may not care about which of the two countries gets bigger when the Kashmir dispute is settled, they come to defend their ppl against torture, rape and humiliation.

          Blaming Pak for Kashmir is easy, but that is not a solution, we need to admit our faults and we need to support the tiny bond of trust we still share.


          Fata
          True Danes have been very barbaric, but now they are the most peace-loving nation on the planet. Theyíve learned from their mistakes, and we should do the same. I understand that a peace call coming from US sounds like a joke, however we shouldnít care about who is giving the lecture, rather we should concentrate on the massage.

          Comment


            #6
            Sabah said >>>We are now openly supporting Kashmir Mujahedeen Ė you may call it politics we call it support to our Muslim brothers and sisters<<<<<

            How about yr open support to Punjab militants, and Assam, and so on (These places are also full of tortured muslims, I believe.

            Comment


              #7
              Dher
              I could end this discussion by saying prove it, but thatíll be a though job and Iím not interested in any propaganda answer either. The shortest answer to your query is that we have better things to do then split India, even though you are in no position to object as your government has done this to Pak. Perhaps you should start looking for solution inside your borders, Pak is not responsible for all your problems nor are we solution to Asaam, Tamil, Punjab etc. problems.
              Itís just too easy to blame us, start questioning your own Gov. for a change, may be youíll be able to solve some of your problems Ė good luck.

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                #8
                I hope yr other brothrens also think like you do. What I have said in my post is what has been said in this forum a thousand times, e.g. 'we will disintegrate India, Khalistan, Tamil Nation, etc.'. My suggestion is first you people decide whether you want to disintegrate India or not and then start speaking. ISI's support to ULFA is now no secret. If we give you proofs, you will simply deny it and that is that.

                Reg. keeping our own house clean, we are on to it as you have already seen in punjab (where your game is already over) and most of other earlier disturbed areas. Assam is also more or less under control. Secondly why do you keep medling with Kashmir affairs when it is not your affair, it can't be just for the sake of religion. Why don't you people send volunteers to Sudan and places like that to help your brothers and sisters. Ever wondered why Indian forces only harassing muslims of Kashmir and not of other states (I know you will come against this statement, but that won't be true). Why is it that muslims in India are occupying high positions. The simple answer is that Kashmir is a case in point because of its proximity to Pakistan. It is very easy for you people to infiltrate and spread your message of hatred to these simple people (including, in the name of religion).

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                  #9
                  Re. What has been said on this forum.
                  Ppl say a lot when they are trying to proof something, and often that those not hold any truth, whether itís coming from an Indian or a Pakistani. Also if you judge it on basis on what ppl say on this forum, then ppl are discussing to nuke Pak on Indian fora does that mean anything, oh well now this possibility is up on national level, but thatís a different story.

                  I guess when you say Ēwe give you proofsĒ your talking about proofs on national level, and that is simply because our nations donít trust each other Ė however if youíre proof are solid then I donít see any reason for denying the truth, on this forum. We are supporting Kahmiris and we accept that.

                  As for splitting India, sure it will make our job easy, and both countries are trying to disintegrate each other. India is supporting MQM and others but youíll almost never hear us crying over that, cuz we are as much responsible for any external interference to disintegrate us as you are. Iím glad to hear that you have are on right track re. your states.
                  As for Kashmir, first of all we do not accept Kashmir as Indiaís internal affair, itís not about territory, or revenge its about Kashmiris. As for Muslims in rest of India, Iíd love to believe you, however the documentaries and reports doesnít agree with you, nor does your Gov.ís actions against Muslims.

                  Re. sending our ppl to other parts of the world, did we ever say that we arenít supporting others? Btw, the mujahedeen volunteer, we donít drag them out of their house and order them to go and fight against this or that. And they are not brain washed idiots, as many of then are from well-educated families and are very much capable of thinking for them selfís. And no not all of them are from poor families either.

                  We do have problems, and we can either keep pointing fingers at each other or we can try to understand each other.

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                    #10
                    Sabah, I like the way you put things. You sound so judicious and balanced and at the same time you say the same things that others are saying.

                    You said Ēif youíre proof are solid then I donít see any reason for denying the truth, on this forum." How do you define solid proofs, is it something said by a third party or documentary evidence, or something else. Please clarify.

                    "We are supporting Kahmiris and we accept that."

                    Support you do, but pls. keep it to your so called moral and diplomatic support as your government had been claiming for the last 50 years.


                    "As for splitting India, sure it will make our job easy'

                    What job are we talking about here?

                    You said: As for Kashmir, first of all we do not accept Kashmir as Indiaís internal affair, itís not about territory, or revenge its about Kashmiris. As for Muslims in rest of India, Iíd love to believe you, however the documentaries and reports doesnít agree with you, nor does your Gov.ís actions against Muslims.

                    What actions? Can you clarify? Pls. talk something other than Babri Masjid because firstly that was not govt's job. Secondly demolishing a mosque which was disputed for a long time, which has all the proofs of being a temple earlier, where no prayers were being held for decades, may be a tricky one to defend.

                    You said: "Re. sending our ppl to other parts of the world, did we ever say that we arenít supporting others?"

                    You are supporting, may be just the lip service. What else are your govt., people, mujahideens, jehadis, etc. are doing for them.

                    You said: Btw, the mujahedeen volunteer, we donít drag them out of their house and order them to go and fight against this or that. And they are not brain washed idiots, as many of then are from well-educated families and are very much capable of thinking for them selfís."

                    Despite being so highly educated as claimed by you, they are fighting a war with arms and not a war of words in the international and other fora, in itself proves that they are being brain washed in the name of religious education that you impart to them.

                    And coming to your last point, I totally agree with you that "We do have problems, and we can either keep pointing fingers at each other or we can try to understand each other." Thanks for this nice understanding. I will try and spread this msg.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Dhir wrote "Despite being so highly educated as claimed by you, they are fighting a war with arms and not a war of words in the international and other fora, in itself proves that they are being brain washed in the name of religious education that you impart to them."

                      Maybe not, these people have been waiting patiently for 50 years for India to fulfill its promises, made by no other than the first elected prime minister of India. They have seen the arrogance with which India has ignored these promises, made in the international forums you are alluding to. They realised in the end that India understands only one language and unfortunately they are now resorting to it. Today the issue of Kashmir is in world headlines because of the actions of these brave freedom fighters. Why did India not do anything about it during the last 50 years. Surely it does not take that long to hold a referendum to ascertain whether the people of Kashmir want to live with India or not. Blaming the uprising on Pakistan and other muslims and saying that Kashmiris are not involved is burying your head in the sand.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        There is no similarity between kashmir and chechnya. The solution that Russians have worked out is to either extradictae on kill all chechens. In Indian Kashmir, demography is legally protected. No non-Kashmiri Indian can buy land or vote in the state even if he/she marries a kashmiri. In fact, lot of non kashmiries have entered pakistani kashmir and voting there.

                        The only change in demography of Kashmir is that all Kashmiri Pundits are thrown out of the valley by your 'freedom fighters'. No human right violation here.. eh.

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                          #13
                          >>Sabah, I like the way you put things. You sound so judicious and balanced and at the same time you say the same things that others are saying. <<

                          Iíve tried being biased and non-biased and everything, by doing this I can listen to you and youíll listen to me, and perhaps we can understand each otherís views.

                          >>You said Ēif youíre proof are solid then I donít see any reason for denying the truth, on this forum." How do you define solid proofs, is it something said by a third party or documentary evidence, or something else. Please clarify. <<
                          I thought this is an easy question, however I realize that we read what we wanna read and believe what we have learned to believe in or what we think is correct. In some cases one org. makes sense cuz they are favoring us in other cases they are full of **** cuz they donít understand our point. I donít think that I can mention any source to be 100% reliable cuz we have our objectives when we read something and the publishers and organizations have theirs when they do their job. Peace doesnít sell.

                          What job are we talking about here?
                          Kashmir is one thing, a broken India probably wont be able to deny Kahmiris their rights. Also the war hysteria and other insanity will decrease. On the other hand that would mean death of millions of innocent Indians, and for arts and culture lovers itíll be a catastrophe. There are several other reasons for not splitting India, or not wanting to see India in such state.

                          >>What actions? Can you clarify? Pls. talk something other than Babri Masjid because firstly that was not govt's job. Secondly demolishing a mosque which was disputed for a long time, which has all the proofs of being a temple earlier, where no prayers were being held for decades, may be a tricky one to defend<<

                          Although Iíve just said that no media or source is 100% reliable, Iíll still refer to Danish media, as they donít have anything to loose if either of the countries win or loose. There was a documentary on TV about Indian Muslims, in which they (the Muslims) said that they were treated as second class citizens, as example education, jobs, religious rights etc. were mentioned. Now I know that most ppl say a lot when the camera is on, still there was probably a lot of truth in it. As for not mentioning Babri mosque, you guys didnít forget your centuries old temple, and distorted not only a Muslim holy place but also a great piece of history Ė then how can you expect that we forget about? But if we can put it behind and move forward, we should do that, but as things are today, weíre asking each other to forget about this and that, and are continuing with same stupid stuff. As for whether it was or wasnít the Gov.ís job, it doesnít have to be, but it is the Gov.ís responsibility.

                          >>You are supporting, may be just the lip service. What else are your govt., people, mujahideens, jehadis, etc. are doing for them. <<
                          What do mean by íwhat elseí?

                          >>Despite being so highly educated as claimed by you, they are fighting a war with arms and not a war of words in the international and other fora, in itself proves that they are being brain washed in the name of religious education that you impart to them. <<

                          I think Ehsan answered this question very well, but let me ask you another question, as we all can agree upon that Kashmir problem is 50+ years old. Why isnít there any peaceful solution to their problems yet? I donít know how many freedom fighter organizations are working there, but how come no body even mentions those who still are calling for a peaceful solution? One move and HUM is known all over the world, why? Weíve have reached that point where only one voice is heard and thatís gunfire. Good or bad, thatís a different story, but the thing is that we all support it, whether we accept it or not, or else we would have raise our voices when we saw the first sign of problem.

                          >>Thanks for this nice understanding. I will try and spread this msg.<<
                          Good and youíre not alone

                          ZZ: ĒThere is no similarity between kashmir and chechnya.Ē
                          Yes there is, at least one - innocent ppl are getting raped and killed. Sounds like Kashmir doesnít it. There is another big one, but I guess you already know that

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Sabah,
                            You said that Muslims are treated as second class citizens in India. Now this is a very serious charge. Whoever said that is lying outright !! I know that since you're a Pakistani, you'll never admit that Muslims in India have the same rights as any other Indian. It's a prestige issue for you guys I guess...I don't know what it is but I feel that by admitting that India is secular you somehow feel the need to justify partition. You mentioned things like education, jobs, religious rights. Ok...lets talk about them -- lets see where Muslims have been denied their rights.

                            Education : If Muslims lag behind other communities in India (I said if), then how is there discrimination. Whose responsibility is it to ensure that Muslims do good in school ? No one in India writes their name on the sheets of competitive exams...we all are assigned numbers and no one knows who is checking the papers. So a bias there is impossible. Entry into colleges is based on the basis of these grades -- now where is the discrimination part. By saying that Muslims are deliberately denied seats in colleges, you're insulting students who get there on their merit !

                            Jobs : In private companies there is no question of any discrimination so if at all there is, it must be for the government jobs. So lets see --- over the past decade, Muslim percentage in government jobs has dropped -- drastically ! So is the reason discrimination. Lets see who are the people getting these jobs -- in the 90's the government of India implemented what is known as the Mandal commission which reserves government jobs for members of the lower castes. Since this has become a political issue, the government increased reservation to 66% in some states and as high as 70% in other states (I know its ridiculous) so basically people on merit have to fight for 30 - 40% of the jobs. So as a result Brahmins in government jobs these days are non-existant (less than 2% in some states). So its not just Muslims who've got hurt by this policy.

                            Religious rights: India must be the only secular country in the world where Muslims are allowed to have their own religious laws. Countries like US would never allow such a practice. In fact I feel there should be one law for all citizens. So I fail to see where the discrimination is.

                            You said you quoted the "Danish media". By the way, do these countries even know what a diverse and multi-cultural society is ? Is there any country in the world which even has half the kind of diversity that India has ?
                            I am ready to compare my country's record regarding minority rights with ANY country in the world !!

                            [This message has been edited by BombayKid (edited February 25, 2000).]

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I believe action speaks louder than words, so I would name a few muslims who have excelled in their field as Indians, despite your claim of discrimination:-

                              Ali SHer - Golf
                              Fazil Ahmed - President Badminton Assoc of India
                              M.N. Masood - Hockey
                              Zahoor ul Hassan - junior badminton champion
                              Syed Modi - Badminton
                              Mohd. Azam - Table Tennis
                              Mir Khasim Ali - Table Tennis
                              Akhtar Ali - Tennis
                              Zeeshan Ali - Tennis
                              Ghous Mohammed, Abbas Ali Baig, Mohd. Azharuddin, Nawab Pataudi (Iftikhar Ali Khan), Mushtaq Ali, Syed Nazir Ali - Cricket
                              Zafar Iqbal, Mohammad Shahid, Atif IDris, Shakeel Ahmed, Mohd. Arif - Hockey
                              38 muslims have so far won award in various areas of science and technology including:
                              S. Husain Zaheer, S.Z. Qasim, A.R. Kidwai, APJ Abdul Kalam, Rais Ahmed, Moonis Raza, M.N. Qureshy, Salim Ali, M. Khalilullah.
                              In arts: M.F. Hussain tops the list. Our films industry is full of muslim artists, writers, poets, directors, actors, if you want I can name them. Similary in the field of music it is dominated by muslims.

                              ALL THIS DESPITE THEY BEING OPPRESSED CLASS, I WONDER

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