No Progress...Just ~~ HOT AIR~~

[Mr Xtreme]

Talks aren't going to lead anywhere judging by the developments on this forum. As far as the political situation re Pak-India talks there aren't even any plans for talks.

A few Indians here some obvious mischief amkers and a few good debaters like Agni, Queer, Bombaykid and ZZ. But we shouldn't kid ourselves. I haven't seen anything from any of them that is too much different from the official BJP govt stance that Pakistan can forget about addressing the Kashmir issue as a precondition of talks.

50 yrs on and India is determined to hold on to what should rightfully have been part of Pakistan anyway even if it means genocide of the population of Occupied Kashmir.

IMO India does not really want to solve this issue and is more concerned about sovereignty over as much land in the sub-continent as possible. The irony is they are playing into the hands of the militant islamists who have insisted all along that Kashmir will only be liberated by jihad. What coclusions can you draw after half a century of talks about talks?

I think Musharraf will be very wise to let the 5000 madrassahs in Pakistan continue their activities and provide India a constant taste of the fruits of their labours. In life if you don't work hard enough for peace then you should get war.

I hope indians have a fair idea who they are dealing with now. All the freedom fighters released from Indian jails have vowed to return and continue their jihad which for them is a pleasure and honour. I don't think Indians will feel the same way but then looks like that's the way it's got to be.

[Mr Fraudia]

when life gives you a lemon...make lemonade..

when people are full of hot air...make a hot air balloon

I agree with the intitial part of your post...and understand the reality of the latter part of the post..

thought provoking

[Mr Xtreme]

Fraudia,

There are still alternatives if the respective governments really want to pursue them. I have heard a few sensible Indians talking about developing the SAARC idea. As far as I know that means India and Pakistan along with other nations of the sub-continent creating a trade bloc similar to the EEC and the United States.

I don't really see a problem with this as long as it is not done with a Greater India perspective. Why not allow a plebiscite in Kashmir, which would get rid of a lot of bad blood and then whichever way the vote goes include Kashmir as part of the SAARC? Why not have co-operation between a number of states rather than strife in just one? This would also allow all these states to maintain their regional identity. Here in the UK we are moving towards devolution. I think it is far more imperative in the sub-continent.

Having said that, I am not really an economist so I am not sure if the SAARC would even benefit Pakistan or it is something being put forward by parties with a certain interest but then that is why we have our own economists; to make those decisions.

[Mr Fraudia]

A trade block will indeed be a boost to the area. As far as the impressions of a greater india ..it is likely. Even in EU numerous countries were uncomfortable with the amount of power Germany had.

So far trade blocks have not failed anywhere, if that gives us anything to go with.

[BombayKid]

It would be very naive to think that solving the Kashmir problem would end most problems between India and Pakistan. Although Kashmir is a big hurdle, it is only one of the many problems. Creating trade blocks is totally unrealistic. Most SAARC countries think that having a trade block will benefit Indian industry more than the others. With such thinking, we're bound to get nowhere.

Mr. Xtreme...
"I think Musharraf will be very wise to let the 5000 madrassahs in Pakistan continue their activities and provide India a constant taste of the fruits of their labours."

I think Musharraf is a "wise man" and he will let the madrassahs continue. But I think thats fine with India. Will the Indian economy be affected by fighting limited and proxy wars with Pakistan --- Sure it will !! Will the Pakistani economy be affected --- it seems that Pakistanis don't think so. So being in constant state of "war" with India will not bother India very much. In fact believe me, there are a few Indians who believe that India should be in a constant state of war with Pakistan so that in the long term the Pakistani economy gets screwed up (like what happened with the Soviet Union when they engaged in an arms race with the US). Going by the events of the past decade, its clear that maybe this strategy can work !

[Rani]

>>a few Indians who believe that India should be in a constant state of war with Pakistan so that in the long term the Pakistani economy gets screwed up (like what happened with the Soviet Union when they engaged in an arms race with the US). Going by the events of the past decade, its clear that maybe this strategy can work !<<

Ditto! I agree with you. Another fringe benefit will be that Pakistan will have millions of people with useless skills coming out of these Mudrassas.

Let's continue fighting.

[Mr Fraudia]

and thats not to say that indian institutions of all sorts are not churning out people with no skills.

hey people with all sort of skill levels have their place in the society and economy

btw: do we have to turn each single thread into a upmanship contest? those who do it should chill a bit.

Let there be atleast one or two threads where people can "discuss" and not "fight" about stuff..

and I promise I wont come to any figth focused threads and try to talk sense..deal?


[This message has been edited by Fraudz (edited January 30, 2000).]

[agni]

Xtreme,

>>
I haven't seen anything from any of them that is too much different from the official BJP govt stance that Pakistan can forget about addressing the Kashmir issue as a precondition of talks.
<<

We Indians tend to believe the viewpoint of the Indian press and if accessible, the International press. Pakistan's views on Kashmir have not exactly been endorsed by the world all these years. So our opinions are more attuned towards what the Indian press reports and not what Pakistan says.
That also happens to be the official GOI line (not BJP, it is not the only part in the GOI). So dont blame us for not toeing the Pakistani line. We are not the only ones.

Besides, let's face the truth - each country wants to believe what is convenient to its interests. These days, even the international press (read CNN, BBC...) has a credibility problem.

[Mr Xtreme]

Typical Indian behaviour. sweet words and friendly gestures but when pushed to produce the mask slips.

>>India should be in a constant state of war with Pakistan so that in the long term the Pakistani economy gets screwed up

Bombaykid,

A starving lion is more dangerous than a well fed one. Ask the Russians.

Rani

>>Another fringe benefit will be that Pakistan will have millions of people with useless skills coming out of these Mudrassas.

Pakistan won't have them Rani. India will because that's where they will be headed after finishing their training. So you better increase your troops in Kashmir from 700,000 to 1000,000.

Agni

that's a nice nick. I went onto Bharat Rakshak Indian forum as Shaheen 2 and got banned after posting two messages - so much for freedom of speech. You Indians need to come to Gupshup to understand the value of proper debate.

Which one's got the bigger payload, Agni or Shaheen??

[This message has been edited by Mr Xtreme (edited January 30, 2000).]

[BombayKid]

Mr. Xtreme..."A starving lion...."

Agreed, but we donot have a choice. Personally, I don't want our nations to be in a constant state of war. If it can be avoided, nothing like it....if not, too bad. I'm not engaging in "one-upmanship" here, just stating some hard facts ! I totally accept that Pakistan can match India in an arms race all the way. Whether the Pakistani economy can survive doing this is something that every Pakistani should be worried about. These madrassahs will be helpful in fighting "jihads" all over the world, but supporting jihads all over the world may be possible for a country like say Saudi Arabia, but for Pakistan it'll only mean more money spent on non-productive work !

[agni]

Xtreme,
>>
Which one's got the bigger payload, Agni or Shaheen??
<<
Don't know, don't care. Your's is a nice nick too. So who has more extremists, India or Pakistan?

[Mr Xtreme]

Agni

Forget about who has the most extremists...Gupshup's got the only Xtremist

I spread warmth and joy wherever I go.