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    Political system...

    Pakistan would be much better off, if Islam is seperated from Politics n and made a personal matter of individuals, like any other religion....
    Folks , arguments for or aginst it....

    #2
    Probably, who knows how any system will hold amidst the type of corruption that exists.
    I will probably get flamed for the next sentence but..between iran and turkey I would like to be more like turkey than iran.
    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone.

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      #3
      It isn't as simple as that. In reality we have had secular government from day one in Pakistan and it hasn't made much difference. Nobody can say that Benazir's govt wasn't secular.

      Also a lot depends on what people want in Pakistan rather than expatriates. I remember being in Pakistan when a Nazia Hassan concert was played to a mixed audience and some woman was on tv saying she thought it was disgusting. Maybe things have moved on since then but for that change to happen people will have to genuinely want it.

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        #4
        If Mr. Fraudia is too afraid to say it, and Mr. Xtreme (will you look at that? 2 Misters) is not sure, let me say it LOUD and Clear:

        We need a sexual revolution in Pakistan. We need nude beaches, casinos, and adult TV channels (after 10pm of course). We need to keep Religion as far away from running our day to day life (e.g., economy, education, etc.) as possible. Let the people decide what they want. If they want to go pray, the mosques are there, if they want to go skinny dipping, a beach is there. If they want both, both are there. What else can you want?

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          #5
          I want lychee flavoured ice cream :<
          The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone.

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            #6
            NYA says

            We need a sexual revolution in Pakistan. We need nude beaches, casinos, and adult TV channels (after 10pm of course). We need to keep Religion as far away from running our day to day life (e.g., economy, education, etc.) as possible. Let the people decide what they want. If they want to go pray, the mosques are there, if they want to go skinny dipping, a beach is there. If they want both, both are there. What else can you want?
            I remember I used to think like this until my return visit to Pakistan where I was treated brilliantly by very simple people but I tended to find the better off swish types real self-centred and obnoxious.

            Maybe 50 yrs down the line people in Pakistan will want those things but not at the moment. If they did they would have it by now.

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              #7


              If we seperate politics from Islam and just make it a personal matter, then what difference is there between us and the Christians? Specifically the West, who have made religion a personal issue, but a secular systems governs the societal relatinshiops....
              In other words, if we do that, we would become no better than these secular western people (christians and jews).
              And when we pray 5 times a day, we specifically say that:
              5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
              6. Guide us to the Straight Way
              7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

              So we're bascially asking Allah swt to NOT make us like Jews and Christians when we pray.

              Another thing, if we honestly believe in the existence of Allah swt and that Islam is the truth, then why should we seperate and want to live by a system that is alien to Islam?
              That would mean that Islam is in-complete or incompetent?
              I ask you guys, is that the case?

              If Islam is incomplete/incompetenet, then why even be a Muslim?

              If we're so obsessed with the Western civilization, then why even remain a Muslim?

              Do we even know what it means to be a Muslim?

              Mostansar.




              [This message has been edited by baleya (edited January 26, 2000).]

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                #8
                Dear Xreme Yar, You were confused then and you are confused now. At least you are consistent. Man, there is nothing wrong with my idea of some naked beaches (we can start off with secluded ones and then see what response we have and may be have more of those). What’s the big deal about seeing some boobs? Or some penises? You ve seen one, you ve seen em all. They all look the same after a while. I think opening up our society will take care of lot of issues that we have. Look at what has happened with Drugs, and how the Drug addiction in Pakistan skyrocketed after prohibition of Alcohol. We have to give Perestroika (or is it Glosnost) a chance.

                Dear Fraudia, You have been a bad boy, no icecream for you. (Would you like some Kulfi instead?)

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                  #9
                  I feel that the state and religion should be kept seperate.Religion is an individual thing. After all we are answerable to the All Mighty for our actions and if we don't follow the religion than we will have to answer for our deeds. No mullah is going to come and answer for us. Pakistan should be more like Turkey rather than Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, even though I would not go as far as NYA.

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                    #10
                    As you are a champion of nude beaches NYA I would like to ask what is the fascination of these people who go to such places? Why do they need to go to the beach nude? What advantages could you see (presumably through a pair of binoculars) to this sort of place?

                    moving on,

                    I think opening up our society will take care of lot of issues that we have. Look at what has happened with Drugs, and how the Drug addiction in Pakistan skyrocketed after prohibition of Alcohol. We have to give Perestroika (or is it Glosnost) a chance.
                    which issues do you mean? And what makes you think drug addiction rocketed b/c of prohibition of alcohol? Drug addiction has rocketed in the UK as well but alcohol is easily available. Anybody who can get hold of drugs could just as easily get hold of alcohol if they really wanted in Pakistan.

                    As for glasnost, interesting report today that Russian males are dying very young these days b/c of over consumption of vodka. Apparently the population is falling in Russia. Is that b/c of Glasnost or in spite of it?

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                      #11
                      My Dear Buddy Xtreme, why worry about people’s fascination? You might have some, but it wouldn’t bother me, as long as I am left alone to judge what is best for me. Same goes for everything else, choice over shoveness.

                      There are two kinds of penises found on nude beaches on the Mediterranean: The “Helmet-Heads” (circumcised) and “Boys-in-the-Hood”. I guess on Pakistani beaches it will mostly be Helmet-Heads. Boobs are all the same.

                      Well if you think that Alcohol is as easily available as drugs in Pakistan (you haven’t been there lately. It is hard my fried. It is very dry there) then why bother with prohibiting it. Again, it is matter of preference. Drugs kill, Alcohol consumption is at least monitored and produced under strict regulations. Again it is your choice. People are sensible, Give them some credit.

                      In terms of your point that Pakistanis, had they wanted, would have had nude beaches, etc. The problem is that half of our life we have been ruled by the Military Phuckheads who have no clue about administration, nor do they care about what people want.

                      You didn’t comment about Casinos? I will wait.

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                        #12
                        Thanks for the penis/boob info NYA but I still don't really see what good it would do. Is it going to provide clean water for the poor? No I don't think so. It will only be of interest to a few old cranks who have nothing better to do. You could have picked a better example.

                        Same goes for casinos. I suppose one benfit might be to attract rich Arabs to come and waste their money in Pakistan rather than Las Vegas but again the money isn't going to go in the pockets of those who need it.

                        Talking of choice, what about rent boys? Some people choose to use them and rent boys choose to get paid for the privelege? Where do you draw the line with choice?

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                          #13
                          Dear Mr. Xtreme,

                          The lines are very clear. It is as simple as keeping Religion a personal issue and not making it a matter of public policy. My example has little to do with boobs and pricks and more to do with exposure (not that kind of exposure) to those who make such issues taboo and never talk about them. I agree it won’t provide clean water to masses, but swimming with bathing suit wouldn’t either. I notice sometimes on Long Island beaches when a group of Pakistani men (not all) pass by a woman who is sun bathing (topless) they stare at her like no one’s business. If they were shown similar things at home, perhaps they would be a bit more sensitive to seeing women with no tops. There are tons of other lessons this simple experiment can teach. Again, I am only talking Karachi here because the rest of the country has no coastal line. But they can try that in hotel swimming pools.

                          Casinos, again it is a matter of personal freedom for people to gamble. If they want, they will, if not, no one will drag them by arm. Your example of boys for rent is a lousy one (Have you seen any places like that in the UK? If so are these places legalized?), because in a society where everyone has a voice, (assuming that people are rational) civil rights take precedent over child abuse. If your assumption is that all Pakistanis are stupid and they should be ruled by decree, then it is a different matter. The King of Saudi Arabia (Fahad), was a worst type of gambler ever. It is said that in one night he lost 680 million dollars at a casino in Monaco. This man later became the “Pasban of Hermain Sherfain”. If you think that he is somehow less of a Muslim because he once gambled, then your faith is more fragile than a hollow crystal ball. Because if one is strong is one’s convictions, no matter what others do or don’t one is always a firm believer. But if one gets ticklish about other talking “sensitive” stuff, one is not firm in his beliefs.

                          While on this subject, what is your take on mixed sex public school, (from K thru High School)?

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                            #14
                            The biggest reason I say keep religion and politics separate is highlightd below..

                            Religion with whose definition?
                            Religion by whose interpretation?

                            We have hot headed, narrow minded, mullahs posing as the spiritual savior of their supposed groups with exclusionary policies and ideas.

                            Implementing those types of beliefs in any institution, let alone government will create undesirable results.

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Yeah, I just called Qazi and asked him to separate politics from religion. But he said bring

                              Fata Morgana

                              [This message has been edited by sabah (edited January 31, 2000).]

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