We really love a good fight

[agni]

If you go to the bottom of this message board with the title "Cam we do some real ground work?" where I exhorted all you folks to do soem serious thinking on Kashmir without insulting or abusing each other. But the response was zero. Zilch!

The reason is not difficult to see. We in India and Pakistan are only good at empty chest thumping and mouthing profanities. When the time comes for issue based talks, it seems so dull that everyone scampers. Little wonder that Indo-pak talks have always been failures. Its no fun really, or is it?

[ehsan]

How can we talk about Kashmir when all the Indians who visit this site claim Kashmir is "Bharat's atoot ung" and therefore nothing can be discussed about it. Change your attitude first.

[Nova]

Let kashmiri frustrations be heard . If it means indian media and government has to be more understanding , then they should be.If it means granting more autonomy , then it should be. I dont know why india canot provide what kashmiris hope to achieve by being part of Pakistan....
As far as borders are concerned. Let the current borders be permanent, with some geographical and logistic considerations.

[ZZ]

Nova ur solution is simply out of question. More autonomy, further autonomy, whatever, India will be happy if no teritory is ceded Pakistan. however, pakistan will not agree to any such solution and keep sending mercenaries till either pak itself or india gets messed up.

[agni]

Originally posted by Nova:
Let kashmiri frustrations be heard . If it means indian media and government has to be more understanding , then they should be.If it means granting more autonomy , then it should be. I dont know why india canot provide what kashmiris hope to achieve by being part of Pakistan....
As far as borders are concerned. Let the current borders be permanent, with some geographical and logistic considerations.

OK. Let's start at that. My (and I guess India's) viewpoint is this : you exhort that Kashmir should become a part of Pakistan. But given the current state of affairs of Pakistan (failing economy, low exports, terrorism etc) why should Kashmir be added to the already turbulent waters? How does your government propose to handle this? Where is the gaurantee that this will not become another fiasco? After all Pakistan's record has been abysmal bith with its own mohajirs as well as erstwhile East Pakistan.

[ZZ]

nova, further autonomy and same borders, India may accept this solution, but Pak will never. Afterall just Kashmir is not aim of Pak. And even if govt. of Pakistan does, at some time, jihasts in Pak will never.

[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited January 19, 2000).]

[ehsan]

Agni and ZZ. both of you are talking as if you own Kashmir. You don't. Kashmiris do, and let them decide. Give them the right of self determination and let all three parties i.e India, Pakistan and the oppressed Kashmiris accept the outcome. The refrendum could ask a straight forward question:

Do you the Kashmiris want to join India, or Pakistan or do you wish an independent state. Now what is so difficult about that. After all the Kashmiris never voted to join India in 1947 and therefore Kashmir will never be part of India till a refrendum is held.

[agni]

Originally posted by ZZ:
nova, further autonomy and same borders, India may accept this solution, but Pak will never. Afterall just Kashmir is not aim of Pak. And even if govt. of Pakistan does, at some time, jihasts in Pak will never.

[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited January 19, 2000).]

Why wouldn't pakistani government accept that? (leave out Jihadis, they are irregulars). Is the Pakistani government saying that "OK let's sit and talk, but hey the solution is on our terms - Kashmir is ours"?
Then there is nothing to talk about since each side knows the others rigid stand. Which means that the current status is going to be maintained for a long time to come. Pakistan will keep Kashmir on the boil by sending in militants. Indian army will continue its anti-insurgency operations which no doubt will result in human rights violations on the side. Pakistan will keep trying to highlight Indian army's rights abuses and the issue will remained as unresolved as it has ever been.
Its a no win situation!

[sabah]

Hi agni welcome to GupShup

I agree with Ehsan that only a referendum can solve Kashmir problem. If the result shows that Kashmiris wants to stay with India, or want an independent state – then the ’Muslim world’ should respect that and visa versa for India. If not then I’m sure any freedom movement after the referendum will not have the kind of support that it has today, how would an Indian react if the result is not pro-India?

One of the problems between Indo-Pak relations is that we don’t trust each other, partly because we’ve betrayed each other so many times that this word has lost it’s true meaning, plus our media (Indian and Pak is becoming active too) is sowing hatred in us. So if things keep growing the way they are, we’ll probably end up hating each other on personal level too. But hopefully we can agree upon a solution before that.

[agni]

Originally posted by sabah:

I agree with Ehsan that only a referendum can solve Kashmir problem. If the result shows that Kashmiris wants to stay with India, or want an independent state – then the ’Muslim world’ should respect that and visa versa for India. If not then I’m sure any freedom movement after the referendum will not have the kind of support that it has today, how would an Indian react if the result is not pro-India?

That is basically the point that I am trying to contest. Why should there be a referendum? Why would India allow it when it endangers its soveriegnty? Certainly a referendum in Kashmir would set a very very bad precedent for the rest of the Indian states. (Pakistan may not acknowledge it, but the Indians consider J&K as a state). And seriously, why cant India and Pakistan live with whatever part of Kashmir they have? (I am thinking out aloud here).

One of the problems between Indo-Pak relations is that we don’t trust each other, partly because we’ve betrayed each other so many times that this word has lost it’s true meaning, plus our media (Indian and Pak is becoming active too) is sowing hatred in us. So if things keep growing the way they are, we’ll probably end up hating each other on personal level too. But hopefully we can agree upon a solution before that.[/QUOTE]

How true! I think Indians and Pakistanis have no respect for each other which is rather unfortunate. Just imagine for a moment that the British and the French (or for that matter USA and Russia) had been in our shoes, having an issue like Kashmir to resolve. Would they really bad mouth and insult each other for every little thing? I doubt. Besides, there wouldn't be so much violence.

Why cant we south asians behave in a more responsible manner? I think the Lahore bus service was a step in the right direction. Vajpayee was trying to tell Pakistanis that there really should be no room for hatred between two neighbors sharing a common history and culture. But somehow, Kargil happened and everything went topsy-turvy. The plane hijacking incident has aroused grave suspicions in Indians' mind that it was masterminded by Pakistan since it stands to gain by the outcome (that is, more power to the militancy(or freedom movement depending on where you grew up) in Kashmir). Indians might have jumped too soon about Pakistan being involved in the Hijacking (personally, I feel they should have been more circumspect), but who can blame them after Kargil?

[sabah]

Agni,
Now this is not a political but kinda ’humane’ thought, none should hold a peace of land as a part of their territory, if a clear majority from that land doesn’t want it. And we believe that Kashmiris doesn’t want to stay with India. So the referendum should be held to 1) prove us wrong, 2) end the war, 3) and let the Kashmiris have what they want (numbering is not = priorities).
Now you can say, that what if Sindh or baluchistan demands the same from Pak, then first of all there is no ’clear’ movement that want’s that, plus our provincial problems are due to racism and can ’easily’ be dealt with, they are at least no way near the Kashmir problem.

>>Certainly a referendum in Kashmir would set a very very bad precedent for the rest of the Indian states. (Pakistan may not acknowledge it, but the Indians consider J&K as a state). And seriously, why cant India and Pakistan live with whatever part of Kashmir they have? <<

If there any reason for India to fear a Kashmir like situation is other of it’s states, then there is some basic problems in India’s policy in handling issues concerning it’s states – and if India and Pak could stop blaming each other for every internal and external problem they have, they both can solve there internal affairs. Which may safe there civilians and stop any separatist movement.

>>Why cant we south asians behave in a more responsible manner? <<
We can, on individual level. However the way media is spreading hatred, and more and more of us denial to understand the others view, is making the whole process a lot difficult then it already is.

>>Vajpayee was trying to tell Pakistanis that there really should be no room for hatred between two neighbors sharing a common history and culture. <<

Vajpayee is not respected by a common Pakistani – so whatever he says or does doesn’t really count. With a leader like him, I doubt that there can be any successful talk between the two nations.

Re. Kargil, India did same ’trick’ on Pak in some 70+ (I don’t remember the details now).

Re. The hijack, well even if the Kargil changed an average Indians mind about Pak, this hijack didn’t have that much effect on a common Pakistani, only the media war was strongly rejected, and why shouldn’t it? The accusations began and still continue without any clear proves of Pak’s involvement.

However pin pointing each others mistakes and fight over details, never led us to any useful result, so maybe we should start listing to each other, and try to see if there is some logic in what others are telling us.

[agni]

Sabah,
>>
Now this is not a political but kinda ’humane’ thought, none should hold a peace of land as a part of their territory, if a clear majority from that land doesn’t want it. And we believe that Kashmiris doesn’t want to stay with India. So the referendum should be held to 1) prove us wrong, 2) end the war, 3) and let the Kashmiris have what they want (numbering is not = priorities).
<<
I agree. But remember India is a democracy. As a part of India, Kashmiris have the same rights as other Indians and they are free in every respect of the word. So I dont see how the phrase "hold a piece of land" applies here. Can you say that India is "holding on" to Maharashtra or Tamilnadu. These are in fact federal states of Indian Union and I dont see why Kashmir cannot be seen in the same light. If there are human rights violations (like the way there were in Indian Punjab) in the process of maintaining law and order, you can't term that as "willful" violation of human rights. Clearly, it is not in India's interests to allow human rights violations in Kashmir. Though, if such violations were somehow forced on them it would perfectly suit Pakistan's aims in the region. Abetting an armed insurgency (every country has frustrated youth looking for some excitement) would be the surest way to make this happen. And Pakistan supports the insurgency simply because it believes that this will pave the way for Kashmir to join Pakistan some day.

>>
Now you can say, that what if Sindh or baluchistan demands the same from Pak, then first of all there is no ’clear’ movement that want’s that, plus our provincial problems are due to racism and can ’easily’ be dealt with, they are at least no way near the Kashmir problem.
<<

Actually, if you thought there was an innenduo in my reference to Sindh and Baluchistan then I am sorry about that. But, why should India or anyone believe that the Kashmiri "movement" is indeginous when a neighboring country clearly stands to benefit from such a movement?

>>
The accusations began and still continue without any clear proves of Pak’s involvement.
<<

That is regrettable, at least from my point of view. Why GOI jumped so quickly and without convincing proof of Pakistan's involvement is a mystery. Organizing a Kargil by Pakistan is understandable. But I doubt if Pakistan's Government would actually organize a hijack..simply too much bad publicity for a already troubled nation.

[2PaK]

Its pretty funny how the UN is such a wussy organization. The UN can just go in and solve the Kashmir issue but it backs away because its scared of a third world country like India.

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You can hate me now....
But I won't stop now....

[Fata Morgana]

I don't think there any solution to Kashmir without jihad.

Fata Morgana

[queer]

"jihad" has only increased the degree of suffering of the kashmiris.