Should PAKISTAN begin ties with Israel?

[Asif]

Hi! Currently Pakistan does not recognise israel due to the fact that it is a 'state' which was carved out of the palestinians homeland and is as such totally illegitimate. However, the bitter truth is that for the foreseeable future Israel is here to stay and, no matter how much we may wish it, we cannot uncreate it (or conquer it--the condition of the Arab armies is pathetic and only Pakistan has a nuke amongst the muslim countries--but it is far away and also has too many problems of its own). So, the logical thing to do would be to have a peace treaty with them (cf: Hudaybiyah) and begin trade etc. Isn't this ignoring the plight of our palestinian brothers--? I too used to think that but the fact is that by methods of guerrilla warfare israel can never be defeated and we do not (as muslims) have the current military unity or strength to destroy it. Also if there is peace between us, it should stop the suffering to an extent of the palestinians--as rememmber the Yehud also do not like to be fighting and isolated as it costs them a lot too...
..but here is my crucial reason--the realpolitik--as to why it is good for pakistani national interest to befriend israel: israel is currently very close to india and often plots against pakistan--now if we offer the hand of friendship--IT TAKES A BIG WEAPON OUT OF THE HANDS OF THE INDIANS and also gives us access to israeli trade, technology etc and makes us a stronger player in the mid-east too...

(while we are in a treaty of peace with them we can carry on learning from them and develop our strength/weapons and eventually--when we are strong enough militarily as an ummah--take them apart; but this is a long term-100+ years-goal...)

what do you guys think? It would be something the indians would never have thought of...

..it will be a coup for pakistan...

[ehsan]

I have always felt that we should have ties with Israel due to the following reasons:

Pakistan does not have any direct conflict with Israel.

Many Arab countries already recognise Israel.

While we become emotional about Israel on the basis of religion, the Arabs especially Egypt and Iraq have supported India during wars with India. Egypt openly supported India during the 1971 war. I have never had any sympathy for Egypt since than.

Pakistan and Israel are the only two countries in the world created on the basis of religion.

We can still support the Palestinians and have relations with Israel.

It is bit silly that while the Palestinians now recognise Israel we don't. There is no logic.

[ZZ]

Pakistan does not stand to lose anything by recognizizing israel. does not stand to gain anything either.i think pak should do it anyway since people as people pointed out it is meaningless.

[queer]

i've got a better idea! why doesnt Pak. have trade ties with the eskimos? that way it'll take away a "BIG WEAPON" out of the hands of the Indians, coz *psst* *psst* it is the eskimos who supply india with valuable ice to run the cryogenic engines for india's missile programs.

why is it that you can think of peace and trade with a 100% jewish state in the hope of scheming against next door neighbour India, which has the 2nd largest muslim population? lemme guess... it's personal jealousy, and you just wanna give it a sophisticated islamic look! dream on all you want, but just look down at the earth once in a while.

[Mr Xtreme]

The strength of the zionist army is much over-hyped. It is only the weakness of the Gulf states and their oil wealth which keeps them from putting an end to that disgusting wart of a nation.

In the 70's the communist Syrian army useless against the occupying israelis in Lebanon, but the Hizbollah sent them packing with their tails between their legs with just a few genuine mujahids.

The treaty of Hudaibiya was slightly different in that it was a pact for two sides not to fight each other for a given period, but this is a case of muslim land being conquered and taken out of islam which is as far as I know not allowed.

Here are some ayats about friendly ties with enemies of islam;

[an-Nisa' 4:91] Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.

[al-Baqarah 2:191.57] And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

[Mr Xtreme]

Queer is right. If we can have friendly ties with the zionists (a former prime minister said he would build the settlements on the bones of the children of the intifada) why not forget Kashmir and have friendly ties with India?

How do muslims feel when the pre-Taliban Afghan government led by Rabbani was making trade deals with India at the expense of Pakistan and Kashmir?

[Asif]

queer its not personal jealousy (btw of whom? :confused --but just plain common sense--india has got 140 million muslims-and i love them like brothers--but it hasn't stopped them from attacking us all the time in every forum politically, militarily, and via the media has it? Besides, our biggest problem is kashmir right--so why not free our alreadt tied hands a bit--and then we'll have one less thing to worry about. Once kashmir is sorted out--we can be friendly with india too..

some people...

brother Xtreme--i agree with you that the yehudi are the biggest enemies of islam and hate the muslims but bro. we have to defeat them using AQL and not just rely on bravado.
We have to realise that the yehudis have about 400 nukes and very sophisticated delivery systems--now okay probably if we fire a Ghauri 3 (range 2500 km) from a mobile launcher from the western edge of pakistan, we can hit the jewish state and probably 3 or 4 nukes would be enuff to wipe them off the face of the earth--but we would a) kill the palestinian brothers too and b) do you think the yehudi would not retaliate? (let alone their masters the USA...)

so war is not an option simply due to the nuke factor; if it was not a nuke power then i agree the mujahideen could easily take them insha Allah...

so brother we have to think long-term here and realistically; as ehsan also ponited out most of our arab brethren recognise them...

...also we have to wait till the countries surrounding them are nuke powers too-eg saudi arabia and egypt (i personally believe pakistan should help develop these countries nuke technology or even sell them ready made nukes)...

TILL THEN--i dont see what we lose...

bro. ehsan i didn't know that the egyptians supported india...or the iraqis..but bro it is only the secular/baathist leaders and regimes who do so , the common egyptian brothers i'm sure would not...even so, WE should always support them against Israel in any event of war as islam takes precedent over nationality...




[This message has been edited by Asif (edited January 12, 2000).]

[queer]

i'll tell you what you are jealous of! You are jealous of indian muslims, coz they co-exist in harmony with hindus in india and this pisses you off. you dont mind joining hands with a jewish state carved out of forceful evacuation of the majority muslim population, on the pretext of a kashmir issue. prove me wrong - tell us HOW does having peace with israel result in an upperhand for Pak in kashmir?

the rest of your plan, to stab israel in the back after being the one who offered the hand of friendship, is ..er.. pretty uncouth and barbaric, who knows, maybe even unislamic.

[NYAhmadiX]

Pakistan will have nothing to gain or loose by recognizing Israel. It might gain some respect in the global community by doing so, and may loose a little at home by the way of internal protests.

It will be wise for Pakistan to just let this issue stay on the back burner and concentrate on working to improve its own internal and border conflicts with its neighbor. If Pakistan can demonstrate that it can peacefully resolve Kashmir dispute through diplomacy, it will then be the time to recognize Israel. First things first.

I also believe that most Pakistanis want to see the Kashmir conflict resolved, once and for all. 52 years of expenditure on arms has taken more than its toll on ordinary Pakistanis. We are sacrificing our well being by continuing to spend on weapons. If we keep going on the current rate, it will not be long before we are eating plutonium for lunch, and uranium for dinner.

[2PaK]

I hate Israel but that's because I used to live in Beirut for three year. I used to see buildings being blown up by Israeli helicopters on the Hizbollah channel on TV everyday and used to see Israeli helicopters everyday hovering over my apartment. American/Israeli flags being burnt everyday in our neighborhood. Those were the days. Living in Beirut from 1992-1995 had a deep impact on my life since now I live in USA.. Funny, eh?
As for Pakistan there is no gain or loss in accepting Israel.

[Nova]

This one is easy....Definitely.
If there are disagreements , they need to be sorted out through Dialogue. Otherwise resolution rests on "might is right".
We know might isnt ever right.Its just might. We wouldnt want to harm the Israeli ppl.They have as much rights as anyone else on this earth. And besides in a comparison of might , pakistan would stand second best.

[proudpakistani]

i dont even understand why we are discussing this. I think that as an ummah we should all be united. So recognizing Israel would mean that someone enters our home, kills our family members, and throws us out and then after some time we go to them saying we want peace. Israel is our biggest enemy.
ALso if we have peace with Israel they will have a chance to back stab us. If we are far from them they cant atleast do that.
As far as countries like Egypt and Turkey are concerned their government doesnt even let women wear hijab. i dont know how are they Muslim country.
Right now the best Islamic movements are going on in India, Paksitan, Afghanistan etc and only Pakistan is a country that is better equiped for war with Israel.
I am not saying that we sould have a war with Israel right now, but no peace with them. Any ways in Kashmir we are fighting with the puppets of Israel. Defeating them will be a big blow for Indias daddy (grand father being Russia)
Israel will be the first supporters of Dajjal and we cant have friendship with the friends of Dajjal.
Inshallah that day is not far when we will defeat them.
As far as all the nukes and **** is concerned, i personally believe that wars are not faught with weapons. They are faught with courage. If wars were faught with weapons than I think that Russia has a lot of Nukes but could not defeat Afghanistan. When you leave in the way of Allah then there are no Nukes. I met a person who faught in Afghanistan and he said that one of the most common things to see during jihad was that one of our companion came back after some attack alive after being hit by three, four bullets.
No Nuke can fight against the will of Allah.
No peace with Israel. We would rather have friendship with India(Even though it is puppet of Israel) but no peace with Israel.
Even if the whole world recognize them atleast they should have fear from someone.
Allah has said that they will never have place to live and history proves it.
Even if the world recognizes them they will have to leave Israel soon, one way or the other.

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unity, faith, discipline

[2PaK]

Let's take Japan as an example. Japan got hit 2 times by the atomic bomb by the USA. Did it do any terrorist attacks? No. Instead it defeated Americans at what they do the best i.e. technology. Americans have invented everything in technology and the Japanes have always perfected it. Why can't we do that? Do we also need 2 atomic bombs to hit us so we can realize what to do? We are so culturally, economically, socially weak that our insecurity leads us to call ourselves the Islamic world. There is no Christian/Jewish world, so why an Islamic world?

[This message has been edited by 2PaK (edited January 14, 2000).]