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Chechyna and Kashmir

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    Chechyna and Kashmir

    I wonder what Indian's would have to say about Chechyna. I wonder if they support Russias attacks on Grozny.

    There are striking similarities between Chechyna and Kashmir. Both are provinces which wish to separate. I wonder if the situation got worse in Kashmir, Indians would support bombing campaigns similar to those in Chechyna.

    Today Russia is going to implement a policy where all males, aged 11-60 would be detained and imprisoned in Chechyna, in suspicion of "terrorist" activities. This of course is ludricous and a gross violation of human rights. According to the Russian logic, Chechynan Muslims are all suspected terrorists.

    I have noticed that a number of Indian posters here, feel the same way about Islam and Muslims. There posts are disturbing. And if they are any reflection of the popular opinion in India, the situation in Chechyna could be repeated in Kashmir. Where all Muslims would be labelled "terrorists" worthy of interrogation and false detainment.

    It is important for the Chechynans to continue to fight until the forces of oppression have left their land. I realize this is easy for me to say, sitting here in front of my computer, but my heart is with them. I can say the same of freedom fighters in Kashmir - I hope their campain is as successful as their brothers and sisters in Chechyna. Because, if popular opinion is any indication of the way Indian policy vis a vis Kashmir is headed, there will be no head way. And the Indian public will never recognize the abuses of their government and will continue to subject Kashmiris to abuses.


    "Hope lies in tha smoldering rubble of empires back through the shanties and tha cities remains/Tha same bodies buried hungry but with different last names/These vultures rob everyone leave nothing but chains/Pick a point here at home and tha pictures tha same/ There's a field full of slaves, some corn and some debit, theres a ditch full of bodies...Tha numb feel the black screen that be feelin like home and tha riot be tha rhyme of tha unheard."

    It does not matter what India or any govt. except US and states like Georgia think about Chechnya. Georgia matters cuz they are on border to Chechnya. US matters cuz it can stop IMF money. But about Georgia, Russians may simply not care and get in georgian teritory and on border adn georgia does not have militarty muscle to stop it. US can stop IMF money. Till now no such indication but we dont know. I do not think any move on money will stop russian campaign. It depends on casualties. Despite recent casualties, war is ;popular in russia. It is not easy to predict about end game.


      ZZ: "It does not matter what India or any govt. except US and states like Georgia think about Chechnya."

      It does matter I think to some extent. If for example, Indian's (the Indian public, not just government) feel that Russia is justified in its actions against the Chechynan rebels, than they would also be inclined to support similar campaigns of terror against Kashmiris, in order to route out the percieved threat of terrorism in the region. Indian media, like media in Russia, may be successful in swaying people to believe that the ends justifies the means, and targetting Kashmiri Muslims (who maybe suspected terrorists) is a viable policy option.

      The world-views of our public, in this respect do shape internal politics. A countries population that can justify the genocide in Bosnia or Nazi Germany for example, is more likely to justify similar killings in its own borders. The same holds for this Chechyna/Kashmir parallel. Hopefully we do not see simlarities in the way India handles Kashmir to the way Russia has handled Chechyna. Although it already seems as though the ball is rolling in this direction.

      So the question Indians feel any sympathy for the people in Chechyna (on humanitarian grounds) or do they hold them in contempt and sympathize with the Russians who are trying to rid themselves of a percieved 'terrorist' threat. Or do they feel nothing at all?

      If the answer given to this is "why should Indians feel anything" - I think that attests to a selfishness and a lack of humanity...everyone should feel some type of emotion when they hear of injustice and inhumanity if they wish to call themselves human.



        Nations take stand about others internal affairs depending on their interests.

        Is Pakistan going to take a stand about religious freedom and repression of ethnicity in in Tibet or Ughur province of China?

        What Russia is doing now is what NATO did in Serbia. Mind you, 13, just 13 tanks were destroyed by thousands of bombs. After the war was over NATO found that there was hardly destruction to military establishments. What brought Serbia to knees was civilian destruction going out of hand. American newspapers were screaming to destroy water system, power system. roads, bridges and other infrastructure was anyway half destroyed, claiming that it could be used by military sometimes and hence was military installation. And much touted claims of 200000 or whatever.. the deaths of Kosovars are not even 2000. Same civilain killing strategy America used in Vietnam war. Same civilian killing strategy was used by Pakistan in Bangladesh war.

        Why should India care to make any statement on it? Individuals may talk. But that is a different story.


          ZZ wrote: "Is Pakistan going to take a stand about religious freedom and repression of ethnicity in in Tibet or Ughur province of China?"

          This isn't about Pakistan vs India. With all due respect, not everything has to be viewed in this narrow manner. It escapes me how many Indians live in a small world - where all events have to come back to India-Pakistan. This post is more about being human and feeling emotions, than anything else.

          I personally do feel for religious minorities in China who are persecuted (Muslims are persecuted also) and I am Pakistani. I think Pakistani's should have sympathy for their struggle and plight. I am not certain how Pakistanis feel, but probably due to a lack of media attention on the subject (or a spin on the subject) they feel indifferent. This although, should NOT be the way they feel. If a society becomes desensitized to international cases of violence and is able to legitimize cruelty and injustice or look the other way when such abuse are occuring, it will be more willing to treat its own people in the same manner. Pakistanis I have interacted with have voiced concern over recent cases of abuses, in China, Latin America, Russia, former Yugoslavia, Indonesia and Rawanda, to name a few. If the Pakistani public cannot exude any sympathy for the victims of brutality, they too will be more prone to legitimize the same brutality within their own borders. The way it was legitimized in Bangladesh - atrocities were committed and every Pakistani / Indian / Bagladeshi (you can't blame one, without implicating the others) should be embarrased and saddened by the carnage that they left behind.

          ZZ, your comments on Kosovo and Bosnia speak for themselves, you are not a compassionate person, if you cannot feel for people who are ejected from their homes, murdered, and raped. You would rather sympathize with the aggressor rather than the victim. I believe this is because the victim is Muslim. And I believe this is the way many Indians feel. Its strange the way you bring up Bangladesh (which I agree with you was a horrible war) and sympathize with Bangladeshis (for no other reason than the fact that you know this can place Pakistan in a negative light), yet fail to recognize the plights of similar peoples in other parts of the world. This type of logic is more about choosing and picking abuses of humanity to suit your own personal agenda than compassion.

          So when Indians call us haters, they should think twice. Because they are the ones who are willing to legitimize the murder of innocent people, on nationalistic and idealistic grounds. Don't get me wrong, I believe in the use of violence also - but only against aggression and oppression (whether the aggressor be Muslim or non, Pakistani or non). I believe in democracy and I believe that people should fight for their right to be empowered. But I do not support the murder and killing of innocent people to obtain those ends - and this is what is occuring in Chechyna and did occur in Kosovo (to the dismay of the world) and yet Indians (if ZZ can be taken as a spokesperson) do not sypathize with their plight.



            i am not here as a spokesman of anyone or anuthing.

            i pointed out that war NATO played at 18000 feet ht. in air was against civilians and not military.

            about things being put india-pak way, if even a win in cricket is dubbed as defeat of hindus by respected moderators (see khel khilari section) then we better not expect better.