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New Millennium Up Yours!

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    New Millennium Up Yours!

    Younger Pakistanis/Indians

    A glance through the posts at this site demonstrates how important it is to build bridges between the two neighbors. It is depressingly unfortunate that we have not learnt from our collective heritage and past of living side by side for centuries. We can sit tight and blame all kinds of externalities for our ‘sorry’ state of relationship, but that will not take us far.

    Lives have been wasted unnecessarily to fuel the geopolitical fire games. We have become monsters, to put it mildly.

    If Arafat and Barak can sit together and negotiate peace, so can we.

    By wasting our energy on getting angry with one another, we have made a fool of ourselves and a laughing stock for the rest of the world.

    I can only hope that my kids grow up to be friends with Indians, and show respect to everyone regardless of their religion or faith.

    A very concerned (and sad) Pakistani

    You should pass this message of friendship on to your jewish friends NYA. They are still pursuing nazis through the courts and that all happened 50 years ago. By the way, it's also true that at least one former prime minister of the zionist state israel was a member of a terrorist group that bombed British establishments. i can't think of the names offhand but I'll look it up if you like.

    The peace between israel and the palestinians will be a handshake over the defeat of the palestinian nation. The peace of the victor and the defeated. Nothing more. Go to a palestinian home in jerusalem and you will more than likely be greeted by a jew with a broad Brooklyn accent rather than an indiginous palestinian.

    There is nothing to stop your kids being friends with Indians. Indians are currently being taught about the greatness of India and it's hindu religion as part of the BJP curriculum. You can also tell your kids about the greatness of India and there will be complete harmony between Indian and Pakistani. The peace between Pakistan and India will be built brick-by-brick with the construction of the new Raam temple at Ayodhya. Put it in your diary marked 'places i must visit'.


      Dear (!!!) NYA,

      It would be good if India and Pakistan can have peace--but we have to ask ourselves what kind of peace we want; if it is the sort of 'peace' the Palestinian brothers are getting [(all neutral observers are agreed that the process is heavily in favour of the Jews--the Palestinians are basically getting a few scraps of land with their own police force; they will not be allowed to have their own army even!!! And economic aid will be distributed via Israel!!! See Robert Fisk's excellent articles from the Independent newspaper)--yet even for this the jews are rapidly building settlements on the ground so that when this 'state' for the Palestinians emerges--and it will as it is part of a US long term strategic plan--the palestinians will have as little as possible..] -then it is not worth such a peace (and I dont think the Kashmiris will agree to it either--even if max pressure is applied by the US). Peace should be on an equitable basis. And I cannot see that happening--the ideal situation would be if the whole of Kashmir was made an independent country--but the Indians will not allow that as they know that in that scenario the Kashmiris muslims will naturally be much much closer to Pakistan than to India.

      So I am afraid that until we solve Kashmir in an equitable way which pleases pakistan, kashmiris and indians there wont be peace...


        The problem with Mr. Xtreme is that he cannot see beyond “religions”. To go after Nazis is to ensure that they are brought to justice, I don’t believe for a second that India has ever committed the same crimes against Muslims as Hitler did to Jews, so it is not a good comparison. No one has his or her hand clean, Pakistanis committed unimaginable atrocities against Bangalis also, but we have a habit to go under Razai when it comes to admitting our own faults.

        About your Palestinian scenario, I don’t think that any Pakistani can match even one tenth of what Arafat has achieved to date for his people. He knows better about peace that you or any other non-Palestinian will ever know. Talk about massacre, your buddy Zia has Palestinian blood on his hands when her served in Jordan. Let’s see what you have to say to that.

        Pakistan should worry about its own existence and stop acting like the spiritual leader of the entire Muslim world. It should clean it’s own house. A great start will be to admit its own mistakes and learn from them.

        To you a Jew with a Brooklyn accent might not sound so good, but have you ever heard some of your own people uttering non-sense and what the rest of the world thinks about them?

        I don’t understand what you are so proud of?

        Dear Asif, I don’t know what to say to that. My only problem is that after Kashmir issue is resolved, the “ugly” nature of our entrenched hatred towards others will find another issue to keep us backward. Hatred solves nothing.


          NY Ahmedi wrote >>I can only hope that my kids grow up to be friends with Indians, and show respect to everyone regardless of their religion or faith.<<<

          Thankyou for a great post and I agree with your sentiments. All this hatred and fighting is waste of time and is self destructive. All this energy that goes in all this hatred should be chanelled and used for positive things.

          [This message has been edited by Rani (edited January 05, 2000).]


            NYA thanks for posting this topic.

            The hijack drama and the days after that really showed how little we trust each other and how holy we hold our egos. Kashmir is just one of the problems – which can’t be solved unless ppl realize that there is a problem.

            As for a peace talk between Indian and Pak - I think that an Arafat-Barak like talk was possible during Benazir or Nawas’s time, they would bow and accept whatever if the armed forces allowed them. I’ve noticed that the gen. has a diff. tone. None of our ’leaders’ have ever made a statement like him about signing CTBT or about peace-talks with India. Therefore I think that there has to be some positive changes on the other side of the border too, to start the talks, but before that we really need to create an atmosphere of trust between these two nations.
            One thing that we also need to concentrate about is the internal issues of Pak, and learn to accept critiques and use it to make the situation better.



              About Arafat NYA, puleeeeehz! The guy's a sell-out! He was once a great fighter--now he is only an Israeli-American stooge whom they are using to forge a totally unfair 'peace' deal becoz things were getting too hot for them to handle with Hamas. So in effect they are using palestinians against palestinians. Lets pray Pakistan never gets such a leader. ameen.


                I am agree with Saba, both pakistan and India needs to sit down and take care of the problems. Why can't we make kashmire a independent state with no ARMY, a pure tourist place for everybody just like they have Switzerland in Europe. I am sure Kashmire will attrack more tourist than Switzerland and can survive on it. I wish the leadership on both side can realize the importance of sitting and working together. We still be a seperate country with open trade and combine resources, I am sure we can creat a situation where world will forget about Japan or Germany. I am sure we have enough talent but somebody has to start it and I think it starts with Kashmire. Lets both pakistan and India Pulls out of kashmire and give Kashmiries their land and work on to develop our own lands. And please Keep Peoples like whatever this guys name was away from this Forum.



                  This is what is required for peace. Kashmir needs to be given freedom, but no matter how much Pakistan wants it, or Kashmir wants it, until India agrees there is nothing we can do. India wants to keep Kashmir as part of India which is stupid if you think about it. India was originally a number of small states like Kashmir and was only unified by the muslims into one country by muslims in the first place.

                  Switzerland might not have an army but it will be allied to NATO I would have thought. They must have some defence contingencies.

                  What is the solution? I don't think India will ever let Kashmir go unless it becomes too violent for them to control. Unfortunately it is very difficult for muslims to live in India these days because they are blamed for all the trouble and are forced to play down their religion or be accused of being anti-hindustani.

                  Look at Dilip Kumar. Because he is a muslim and received an award from Pakistan he had hindu mobs outside his house demanding he return the award. That is the situation for a hero film star. What must it be like for ordinairy people?


                    What is so wrong if people ask Dilip Kumar to return the award in protest of Kargil or hijacking or terrorism. what is so big deal with the award from a country which is keen on leaving India in state of terror? It is fine if he keeps it. Nobody is hitting him on head for that.. But nothing wrong if people want him to show the anger.

                    And if u love Muslims so dearly, why don't u accept Bihari Muslims stranded in Bangladesh who fought for you in the war?

                    The whole issue is just for teritory. How does grabbing Kashmir by Pakistan help Muslims in other parts of India?


                      ZZ, I am not talking in favor of or against Pakistan and I am taking in favor of or agianst India Either. I am talking about freedom for kashmiries, Freedom of choice for them, it is their land let them decide what they want to do with it. If they want a seperate nation they should be allowed to have one and if not than they have a right to fight for that. They were fighting for that peacefully and achieved nothing, now they want to do it so they can be seen. Here in USA if you ask a normal educated person about Kashmire and problem of Kashmire, they would know nothing about it (now I am takling about a person who knows about world Geography and Politics). I had friend in school here in USA , she was from Yogusalavia and had a Master Degree and Political Science and her speciality was Sub-continent, She told me that because of Indian influence you can not solve Kashmire Issue Politically, you have force that issue to get result. Unfortunatly,
                      the only way to get attention now is to terrorize the world. Yes this is a tragedy that peoples of land when try to get freedom are treated as terrorist.
                      Terrorist are not born terrorist, the time makes them terrorist. It takes a one generation to produce terrorist, Look at Palestenian, a one whole generation suffered in the hands of Jews and also muslims and than the next generation came they had no value for life because the never saw that in their lives. Their love ones were butchered in front of them and they could do nothing to stop it. Look at Bandit Queen, do you think it was her fault that she became a Bandit or it was the system who made her Bandit and forced her to kill so many peoples. Thats what I am affraid of, kashmire has that generation who were brought up under tuff conditions and now they out there taking revenge, they know that they are going to die , so they will make sure that they take 10-15 lives with them. NO, it's not your fault and it's not mine either. I pretty much sure if Kashmerey will Kidnape some ministers daughter or son, you will see a better and faster response from you Government than what you saw in previous Hi-jacking.

                      [This message has been edited by johnd (edited January 06, 2000).]


                        sooner or later the scattered muslims in india will have to unite and fight for independence. i think they should choose a couple of states and start migrating to those states. right now by being scattered all over india they they are very weak and vulnerable.

                        no matter how democratic, civilized, liberal, peace loving and secular india claim to be..... when it comes to muslims you are always considered below the shooder.

                        take a look around you. guns have replaced swords. cars have replaced horses... but "might is right" has not changed. russia can bomb chechens because it can. US can bomb Iraq because it can. Serbs murdered millions of muslims because they could. Israel can occupy the muslim land and the holy sites cos it can. And there is nothing you and I can or anyone can do about that.

                        Wake up. Live like a lion or refuse to live.


                          How will u solve Kashmir problem using force, tell me. Is Pakistan capable of defeating India militarily? How far can terrorism go? A much stronger movement is sitting in Lanka, well known LTTE, no Kashmiri or any organizatiion is any patch on LTTE. They have army and even area under their control, huge number of suicide squad members. Do u see any possibility of Tamil eelam in Lanka in near or far future?

                          Kashmir is not the only cessationist movement in India. Even otherwise nationalist Shivsena memebers talk of the money paid by Maharashtra to feed poorer states. There is now way in which India will allow further partition of the country. As soviet union has shown, it does not help people.


                            ZZ wrote "There is now way in which India will allow further partition of the country." Therein lies the problem, the Indians are not prepared to acknowledge that Kashmir never was and never will be part of India. They will never be able to crush the freedom movement there. The sooner you realise this the better. Till the Kashmir problem is resolved there can be no peace and friendship with India.


                              Dont take parts of argument out. Discuss it in whole. and what is being part of india? For all practical purposes it is part of India. And question remains, if kashmir why not everyone else. That question will come. Question will come about Muslims in rest of India if only muslim majority province breaks up. We dont expect Pakistan to give up their one-point agenda. but do not see any reason for India to accept it.