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Along party lines....

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    Along party lines....

    American senate voted for CTBT a few weeks back....and the results showed almost perfect division along party lines. Indicating, as disucussed in the media here, that senators were influenced by loyalty to party much more then utility /effectiveness of the treaty. The concept of nationalism/distorted patriotism is an extension of the same loyalty, which invariably influences reasoning...
    I have followed the discussions on this forum , specially between indians and pkaistanis. what struk me the most is the almost perfect division along national lines...Pakistanis are in general a little crude in their expression, indians are a little sophisticated , but core content is the same. If you read between the lines message from both sides is the same...You are Bad, We are Good. Or better yet......we are superior are inferior.( goodness vs badness represents a relatively sophisticated aspiration )
    Discussions can have many different purposes...from, having a place to scream out your mind with sole aim to negate poor self, sharing information and helping each other grow by bringing in different point of views...We, in this forum havnt been able to grow out of the first goal...
    This post is not about India Or Pakistan , its about ppl and what at core we are all made up of...things that need to be recognized within ourselves so that we can grow out of it.

    superiority, i believe runs along two lines. Indians believe they are liberal, secular, natural democracy where martial law can not be even thought. pakistanis find fault with this argument. they will say indian secularism is in name's sake only, liberalism does not exist and democracy is a facade. so clear islamic martial law is better than liberal democracy which is not honest. if there are any faults it is because islam is not perfected yet, as soon as islam is pefected in state, pakistan becomes ideal state.

    then there is a shade of racism, which is even seen in pakistani newspaper articles. explaining history of pakistan emphasis is on 'duplicity' of hindus often considered 'banias' who make living out of cheating.

    again 'we ruled india 1000 year' kinda argument is there and simultaniously calling oneself victim of Hindu duplicity. They sincerely believe that it was possible to convert Hindus en masse and rebellions like Shivaji could be crushed and blame the rulers at that time who failed to do it. If there were no Hindus, all would be Pakistan.

    While Pakistanis have this air of racial superiority, whether or not racism is allowed in Islam, Pakistanis definitely believe them to be stronger race. If there are any defeats, some reasons are found like 71 debacle was because Benglis were on India's side (bengalis are also inferior race but two inferior races together may make difference) kargil debacle is because US intervened and so on. So if you win, u win because u r superion and if u lose, u lose due to factors out of your control. On the other hand, Indians consider Pakistanis as barbarians, with mindset that is thousand years old and rabidly communal.

    Now this description is bit sympathetic to Indians,.. but that is along party lines .. again.


      Its difficult to get into discussions, that facilitate mutual understanding, when we spend the majority of our time defending our beliefs from attack. I don't think the discussions here are as simple as
      Post: "you are bad", Response: "we are good". I think they are more like, "your religion is barbaric", Response: "stop generalizing, it is not". We can't get beyond this point.

      How can you discuss something with someone who thinks they know what you believe better than you know yourself? The camps that divide us get even more solidified, as we try to defend the values that we hold dear from lies and generalizations fabricated to undermine our arguments.

      The attacks levelled here by certain posters, are not just implicating the Pakistani government in wrong doing, but also the entire Pakistani population, along with every person on the earth that believes in the message of Islam. I personally notice that Pakistanis who post here are a bit more careful, clarifying between Hinduism, Indians, and the Indian government. Indian's on the other hand would rather post with topics like - "In the name of Islam!", and discuss "Muslims attitudes towards infidels", rather than discussing what they percieve to be the shortcomings or mistakes of the Pakistani government, they condemn our entire nation and all those who share our religion.

      Can division not be healthy? Perhaps its time that we divide and sever our ties with India indefinitely.



        Hijacking organization calls itself 'Islamic Salvation Front' Seems to have a broad based support of Ummah. UAE authorities told that two of hijackers are Sikh. This turned out to be deliberate misinformation. The fact that there was qualitative and quantitative increase in weapons of hijackers in Kandahar prompts questions of role of mullas in Kandahar.

        I don't know about Islam. But as far as I can see, all parties in Pakistan claim to go by Islam and so does govt. There is no non-Islamic party in Pakistan. PPP was responsible to declare Ahmadiyas Muslim, one of fundamentalist demands and PML was even appreciative of Taliban and wanted to bring shariyat. So you can not distinguist as mainstream parties and right wing religious parties. All parties are right wing religious parties in Pakistan and the approach that govt. of Pakistan is taking on various issues is at least mulla - approved if not mullah inspired according to whatever is their interpretation of Islam which I am not questioning.

        BTW, my above post just describes the stereotypes, not saying that I subscribe all of them.

        The references to Islam are coming since the movement in question refers to it. If a secular movement like JKLF was being discussed, maybe there will no reference to Islam. But the movements being discussed claim to be Islamic.


          ZZ wrote "UAE authorities told that two of hijackers are Sikh. This turned out to be deliberate misinformation."

          Wasn't it the Indian government and Indian media that had irrefutable evidence that one of the hijackers was Nepalese. Wasn't that deliberate misinformation, after all this hijacker accompanied your foreign minister back to Delhi.