Babri Masjid.

[BombayKid]

This could have been in the "Religion" section but I guess it's more political. 6th December is the anniversary of Babri Masjid demolition. I just wanted to know if there is any one amongst you who feels that the mosque should have been handed over to Hindu organisations by Indian Muslims for a temple ? Do you feel that the destruction of the mosque was caused due to Hindu fanaticism or do you feel that Muslim organisations in India could have handled the whole episode in a better manner.
Basically just wanted to know how you guys feel about the whole thing (though it's an internal matter of India).

[sajjna]

Bombaykid, please don't call that structure a 'Masjid'. According to Islamic holy books , a disputed place cannot be a mosque. Moreover there were idols inside and prayers were offered daily .

[ehsan]

The destruction of the mosque was caused by Hindu fanatics many of whom belong to the "secular" BJP and its allies. To mark this day many of the parliament members of the "secular" BJP and its allies were yesterday wearing saffron coloured scarves with the legend "Glory to ram".

[Mr Xtreme]

The Babri masjid demolition was the lifting of the veil from the antics of the hindu zealots. No muslim will ever forget the scenes of thousands of hindus crazed by thoughts of revenge for 1000 years of muslim rule tearing down the mosque while the BJP - backed police stood by and watched.

Actions always speak louder than words.

BombayKid, it might be an 'internal matter' for India (nice term: borrowed from the jews and the west) but the matters of the muslim people are a matter for muslims everywhere. Don't ever think you can cut the muslims of India off from the rest of us. Nothing in our religion will allow it. Bring your Indian muslims here and watch me slap their faces if you think otherwise.

[hinduhindustani]

Bombaykid,
It is futile to expect logical or objective answer from Pakis. They can never be reasonable once the word Religion(read Islam)enters any discussion.
Babri Masjid episode should be seen in total perspective. It was a cummulative anger of ordinary Indian against the wrong/skewed political strategies of our political class. This was the class which hammered an engineered philosophy in the minds of the people. They used/abused Muslims of India with the connivance of Muslim clergy or even political leaders. The result is that Muslim minds today are not as progressive as it could have been.

[This message has been edited by hinduhindustani (edited December 07, 1999).]

[abbas]

extreme,
who the hell are you to comment on indian muslims. one isolated incident do not reflect the reality of the situation. in your country you people kill each other in mosques and that also is a regular feature. i doubt whether you people could be called muslims or nots. because no way islam teaches this type of things and you look forward to every oppurtunity to bash india. forget it. if you are so concerned about every muslims then why dont you people help iraqis who are really suffering at the hands of western powers. instead of that you are licking arse of western powers. not only you are hypocrite but also shameless. in future stop talking on behalf of indian muslims. regarding slapping of face, we have slapped you since independence by showing our integrity, loyalty and patriotism to our motherland. and that is what islam has taught us. not like you who misinterpreted and spread terrorism in the name of islam.

[Mr Xtreme]

Indian parliament in uproar over mosque demolition

News International

NEW DELHI: India's parliament had to be adjourned twice on Monday, as the seventh anniversary of the demolition of the historic Babri mosque triggered angry exchanges in the lower house and demonstrations across the country.

Furious opposition MPs disrupted proceedings in the Lok Sabha while trying to pin down Home Minister Lal Krishna Advani for the demolition of the mosque in Ayodhya town by Hindu fanatics on December 6, 1992. Advani is among some 40 people accused by federal investigators of conspiring to demolish the mosque.

Hundreds of rallies and protest strikes, both in support of the razing as well as in its denunciation, were held across India. There were, however, no incidents of major violence, according to domestic news agencies. Police in Uttar Pradesh, where Ayodhya is located, arrested nearly 800 demonstrators. Communist parties staged marches in several cities around the country exhorting people to mark the day as one of religious amity.

In Delhi, over 300 activists from Citizens for Secularism, an umbrella organisation of about 12 groups, marched in a procession to protest against the demolition. About 100 Muslims also marched in protest, carrying signs that read, "The Jehad will go on," and "We will rebuild the Babri Masjid."

Advani's Hindu nationalist BJP party, which heads India's ruling coalition, was the country's main opposition party with close links to the Hindu zealots who destroyed the mosque in 1992. On Monday, Advani was heckled by opposition MPs in the Lok Sabha, several of whom moved near the speaker's chamber shouting slogans against the Hindu nationalist-led government. Unable to restore order, speaker GMC Balayogi adjourned the house, 20 minutes before lunch.

BJP leaders have denied their involvement in the destruction but support the building of a temple there. Hindu hard line groups such as the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, or World Hindu Council have called for December 6 to be observed as 'victory day'. Muslim groups have campaigned for it to be declared 'a day of national shame'.

Later, when the House resumed proceedings, the speaker announced a second adjournment after opposition MPs clashed with members from a Hindu party who called Muslim emperor Babar an 'invader'. The remark triggered a fresh wave of slogan shouting. In a bid to restore calm, a ruling coalition ally suggested that December 6 should be declared a 'national integration day.'

BJP spokesman Venkaiah Naidu later slammed the opposition terming it disillusioned and frustrated, and said they had no other issues. "Some people want to raise the issue because of their conviction in vote bank politics and the opposition wants to divert the House's attention and obstruct its proceedings. I don't find any logic or rationale behind this action," he said.

Junior Minister of State for Food Processing Syed Shahnawaz Hussain, meanwhile, appealed to all Muslims to forget old wounds. "Let this be a day for opening a new chapter of Hindu-Muslim friendship," he said. Shahnawaz said the Congress and other opposition parties were 'shedding crocodile tears' over the demolition. He said the Congress had no right to raise the issue since it was in power in New Delhi when the mosque was demolished.

Meanwhile, armed police and paramilitary personnel were deployed at the site in Ayodhya where Hindus tore down the mosque seven years ago and hurriedly built a makeshift temple. Although the then Indian government vowed to rebuild the destroyed mosque, the promise has not been met. Hindu fanatics allied to Vajpayee's government have warned of violence if the makeshift temple is razed.

The Press Trust of India said Muslim traders in the twin towns of Ayodhya and neighbouring Faizabad town kept their shops closed on Monday as part of a protest to demand the rebuilding of the mosque. Held Kashmir was paralysed by a similar protest strike. Security was also tightened in various parts of southern India and the port city of Bombay, which witnessed some of the worst rioting after the mosque was destroyed.

[Mr Xtreme]

Slave of the Pagans,

read the article i just posted then come back with your comments.

[BombayKid]

Mr. Xtreme....
Well...these were expected replies. Anyway..just wanted to see if there are any Muslims who saw the whole episode from the point of view of some Hindus (just as lots of Hindus came up in support of Muslims). It's easy to say that Muslims all over the world are one and their problems are the same. But the amazing thing is that you guys talk about Indian Muslims as though they are at your mercy. What have Pakistanis done for Indian Muslims other than offer "moral and diplomatic support" (nice term: seems to be borrowed from some tinpot dictator's speech)? We all know how you treated "Mohajirs"...and even worse is the treatment of Bihari Muslims. So given your country's record I think it would be better if you would leave Indian Muslims alone. There is a chance they might want to "slap" you for offering to "support" them just like you've "supported" Mohajirs and Biharis !!
Most Indians or Pakistanis hadn't heard of the Babri masjid until it became a political issue. it was never used as a mosque (no prayers were ever offered). It basically was a historical structure which was in a dilapidated state. When the VHP offered to rebuild a mosque at adjacent to the temple there was a big hue and cry.
Anyway...over the months we've seen in Pakistan how worshippers were killed in mosques and how mosques were burnt. Why wasn't there a big hue and cry about it ? Why weren't foreign newspapers all over Pakistan condemning the incidences ? In India the whole Uttar Pradesh assembly was dissolved and the government was dismissed. How many Pakistani ministers resigned and how many governments were dismissed when these mosques were burnt ?
I'm only asking these questions since you talk about Muslim solidarity and are so enraged about the whole Babri episode that you want to "slap" Indian Muslims. Did you slap any Pakistani Muslim for letting this happen in your own country --- the "haven for Muslims" ?

[This message has been edited by BombayKid (edited December 07, 1999).]

[Mr Xtreme]

Any Indian muslim who keeps his nose out of our affairs and is not hostile to Pakistan is treated as a brother. If they want to make enemies of Pakistanis and pledge their allegiance to Hindustan above the word of Allah and His ummah (nation) then I will have no hesitation in delivering a hard slap because this is all he deserves.

Read the report that I pasted...it is from reuters so you know that I am not making it up. Those Indian muslims are what can properly be described as muslims.

Indians like Abbas are clearly marked as munafiqs (hypocrites) in the Quran. Now I don't ask them to come here bad-mouthing Pakistan, but if they do they will get the truth in no uncertain terms.

Yes we know that there are incidents where mosques are burned and worshippers killed in Pakistan. Indian RAW agents have been very active the last few years. We must be vigilant and root these types out.

I know it concerns Indians that they cannot isolate Indian muslims from the rest of the Ummah and make them face Dehli instead of Mecca but that's just the way it is. Islamic brotherhood will always come before national ties and nothing you can do will change that.
No Indian 'muslim' can pretend otherwise. That's an open challenge.

[BombayKid]

Mr. Xtreme,
"Yes we know that there are incidents where mosques are burned and worshippers killed in Pakistan. Indian RAW agents have been very active the last few years. We must be vigilant and root these types out."

Here's where the problem lies --- you refuse to see the problem !! Blaming RAW is only too convenient. Those Sipah-e-Sahaba guys don't look like RAW agents to me.
Anyway, India commited the same mistake during the Punjab crises by just blaming militancy on Pakistan (although the ISI was involved big time). The Congress just refused to acknowledge that mistakes had been commited and injustice had been done towards Punjabis in general and Sikhs in particular.
But it's nice to know that you do believe in Muslim brotherhood -- just remember it next time a mosque is burnt in Pakistan and instead of blaming RAW, try and find fault within your community so that there may be solutions. Or else you can just refuse to see the problem and it'll will never go away.
In any case I don't think Abbas is bad-mouthing Pakistan --- I don't feel anyone should do it. It's just that in the light of the above mentioned incidences you seem like a "munafiq (hypocrite)" trying to lecture him on how to be a good Muslim !

[abbas]

extreme,
who on earth have appointed pakis as the spokesman of islam and allah. the allah which i know and beleive in does not preach violence. because of you people, muslims all over the world are viewed as fanatics. islam instead of gaining respect of others is viewed as suspect. as i had told in my previous postings, mussalman means mussal-e-iman. a musalman will die but will never betray the soil where he was born. this we have learnt from koran and following it up in our life. there is no use of slapping you because you are so shameless that all your previous arguments have been exposed as hollow by fact and others. it is on record on this site that whenever logic and rational arguments are forwarded, you have retreated to other link. this speaks about your convictions that when rationality fails you use religion as a shield. i have never seen a coward like you in my life. how can a coward like you claim to be spokesperson for islam. islam is too great a religion to whom a incident like ayodhya or others cannot degrade it. but definitely people like you hurt its cause very much.
regarding blaming on raw for incidents in pakistan, forget it. there are volumes on isi printed in media. first look in your own house before blaming others.
you claim to be champion for all muslims suffering. tell me first why you are not fighting jihad for iraqi people who are suffering like hell. if you dont know then see the latest report of WHO. instead of helping them you people are licking the feet of the western countries. so much hypocrites you are. where you philosophy of jihad has gone. your philosphy is with convenience. where it is helpful to you, you will use it otherwise neglect it. i dont want to quote any word from islam for you because that will degrade islam.
thirdly indian muslims dont require a certificate from you people. allah will judge us and inshallah we will be victorious in our convictions and our principles.
meanwhile do some introspection which i know is useless for you because then you would not be in a position like what you are now.

[sarwar]

Well said, Abbas.

[ehsan]

Bomby Kid wrote "Here's where the problem lies --- you refuse to see the problem !! Blaming RAW is only too convenient. Those Sipah-e-Sahaba guys don't look like RAW agents to me".

Doesn't it sound familiar to you, read any posting of ANY Indian on Kashmir and you will har the same statement "All fighters in Kashmir are Pakistan backed infiltrators". Blaming ISI and Pakistan backed infiltrators is only too convenient.

Abbas you are welcome to stay in your motherland and die for it if you so wish who gives a toss, certainly not me. To me you are an Indian and that's it. A few days back I wrote in one of the threads that I prefer a Pakistani non muslim to an Indian muslim. I hope all my compatriots can now see that I was right in saying that. Talking about the Iraqi people why aren't you helping your Kahmiri brothers as they are being butchered and raped every day by your brave jawans. OH I see they are Pakistani infiltrators, I forgot the Kashmiris never want to seperate from india. Grow up and have a life. Next time you want to quote Islam first give your views on Kashmir and try not to repeat the garbage spewed by the indian media but look at it from the point of view of Islam. But than it would be asking too much of you as all you indians are hypocrites. By the way who appointed you or your compatriots as spokesman for islam.

[BombayKid]

Ehsan...
"Doesn't it sound familiar to you, read any posting of ANY Indian on Kashmir and you will har the same statement "All fighters in Kashmir are Pakistan backed infiltrators. Blaming ISI and Pakistan backed infiltrators is only too convenient."

Sure it sounds familiar, Ehsan...who is denying that. Thats the reason why I gave the Punjab example. Who's denying that India have made mistakes in Kashmir. We've made huge mistakes. No where in my threads will you see me pointing fingers at only the ISI.
Anyway my point was made....just wanted to check if anyone had a better argument about the destruction of mosques in Pakistan. But I like your attitude when you said that Pakistani non-Muslims are more dear to you than Indian Muslims. I feel if every Pakistani thinks on these terms, it would be a much better place. But there are people like Mr. Xtreme who are concerned about the suferring of Muslims in places like Chechnia, Dagestan, Kosovo and of course Kashmir. Why --- because the people living there follow the same religion as you do. Till a few months back no one knew whether these places even existed (but for Kashmir of course), but now everyone is worried about their "plight". Nothing wrong in worrying about them or expressing solidarity as part of your "brotherhood" thing, but first shouldn't you get your own house in order. See whether the Muslims in your homeland are safe...then if one day you become economically as strong as the Arab nations, then you can actually talk about helping other Muslim nations. As of now, sadly, you're in bad shape !!

[This message has been edited by BombayKid (edited December 07, 1999).]