What a hypocrisy...

[Mahmood]

General Musharaf today said; "We shall not beg, we shall not borrow and we must get out of the syndrome of borrowing". (Dawn - Internet edition).

But on the other hand in the last few weeks he has put all his efforts to do that. Most of his appointments in the present illegal set up are to please those international lending instutitions. He is signing deals for loans with one country after another...what a hypocrisy, Genaral.

[kashmirigirl]

Please respond in Politics forum..thanks.

[ehsan]

Mahmood Bhai enough of this army bashing. You have made your point, now give us your alternative. What should the army do,who should they hand over the power to? Hold elections or what? Please explain your alternatives. When replying please keep in mind that the people are sick and tired of the Bhuttos and the Sharifs and their accompanying corruption. Army is not the answer but at least they have given us hope and breathing space.

[Mahmood]

ehsan, the only longterm solution lies in strengthening the political instutions...Bhuttos and Sheriffs would have died politically long time ago...had they been allowed to complete their terms in office...and face the next elections. Do you think that the Benazir's style of ruling the country or the way Nawaz Sheriff put himself above everything else would have let them survive politically in the comming elections. They are lucky that that every time they are moving toward their political death, generals' lust for power makes them the heroes.

The problem is that the armed forces are the only strong and organised institution in the country. Without strenghhening our our other institutions (political, judiciary etc ect)we should not expect any meaningful change in the country. You can't expect reasonable working relationships among few institutions where there is onle very strong institution and others extremely week. Only partnership of equals can take the country forward.

What could be more disgraceful in a country that the heighest court declares the coup-de-tat (an act which plainly qualifies for a death penalty, and you don't even have to search for the evidence) of General Zia, jaiz due to principle of necessity. If the necessity principle is applied then no one in the country should ever be punished for any crime as all these are done due to (their) necessity.

The only solution, I would stress, is that the political institutions should be allowed to gain strength without any interference. The first few years would be very difficult for all of us that we might have to suffer lieks of Bhuttos and Sheriffs but with the passage of time when the political institutions gain strenght, it would not be possible for autocrates to survive. We, anyhow, have nothing to loose. Army has ruled for more than 50% of the time in Pakistan, their record is in front of us as well.

Let our hatred for few (or even all the present or past) politicians not lead us to hate the whole of the institution of democracy, as this is not in the interest of the country.

[This message has been edited by Mahmood (edited December 05, 1999).]

[Farid]

People like Ehsan should understand that Democracy and Army rule are 180 degree a part concepts. They can not be mixed together. If they are mixed, then evils like Ayub Khan, Yayha Khan and Zia-ul-Haq will emerge on surface. This type of mixture is more harmful than rule of Chopat Raja like Nawaz Sharif. These "chopat Rajas" can be eliminated in a good democratic system but those Absolute Evils will always be replaced by Absolute Evils. Then forget that country would prosper under any such leadership.

You can not have politics on one hand and autocratic rule on the other. Even after a lapse of five decades, people have not figure it out what they want. Either there is lack of understanding or as I always say they are basically dishonest at heart.


FARID M

[Mahmood]

Farid, main problem is we only think emotionally. Some people said, politicians are corrupt, everyone is now beeting the same drum. No one bothers to look any further or deeper. You said rightly, it's very easy to kick the politicians out. Longest any politican have been able to serve was Bhutto. And that was only five years. On the other side, Ayub Khan and Zia each ruled for over ten years. No one was able to do anything.

Our people should understand these things and should not get emotional. Even our constitution is biased in army's favour. If someone says something against the army, it's a criminal offence. Thsi has left everyone of us just one option, to praise the army.

Otherwise, if you look carefully, 80% of our resources go towards army and the remaining 20% are from which politicians run the country and put into their pockets as well. Even a bling should be able to understand that if we hear the sort of figures politicians misappropriate, imagine the figures from that 80%.

[Abdul Mughal]

Brothers
The whole of the system is currupt and there is no solution for this. We can only discuss this
The Golden rule is whoever has gold is the ruler.
I'm fed up of this democracy and dictatorship ,Why do people need Democracy if people don't understand the basic concept of democracy. First thing is you need education for understanding and we lack that.There is no education setup for people to take decent education in colleges and universities, students are still following 18/19 century setup of education.
Tell you the joke about the education I was in my second year of college in 1989 like A'Levels and the sylabus stories were Written in 1837 by some English writer. It's a joke isn't it. There is no update technology which build interest in student to do more researh and there is no availablity of colleges and universities for research. The Iq of student is going down every day. The Govt. has fixed pass rate that they will pass only certain amount of student in colleges and universities. The litracy rate is dropping every day people are fed up of there education and they regret themselves of getting that education.

It's the system we need to change and that requires the total clean up of the whole setup.

Who will change this setup obviously not in my life time.
Until we change the education level for the people there is no way.

[This message has been edited by Abdul Mughal (edited December 06, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Abdul Mughal (edited December 06, 1999).]

[ehsan]

Mahmood and Farid:
Yes it si very easy to be idealistic and ignore the facts on the ground. Let's see what our great democrat had done:

Destroyed the judiciary.
Destroyed the presidency
Harrased the press into submission
Was in the process of destroying the armed forces.

And if this was not enough, he had become so powerful that in the next election he would have won with a 99.9% vote, just like the rulers do in elections held in most middle east countries. Sure the system would have got rid of him, but would there have been any Pakistan left by that time. You need to kkep your perspective clear and look at the situation on the ground. I have stated before I do not believe in military governments but the so called democrats in this case asked for it.

[kmailik]

To all Army bashers... It is better to have a kind dictatorship than an evil democracy. As proof that this COAS, General Pervaiz is different to those before him - (Ayub, Yahya, Zia) one just has to read the very liberal press of countries like the USA, UK, France, Germany, Canada and Australia to name but a few. They have come out very firmly in support of General Pervaiz's coup and have justified it on the grounds that Nawaz Sharif was such a destructive leader - they have even forced their own governments to change their initially hostile positions. In Nawaz Sharif's two terms in power these were his clear 'achievments':-

1) Destroyed or subdued all the democratic instutions - Presidency, Supreme Court and Parliament.

2) Weakened the federation to such an extent that certain parties were starting to talk about separation.

3) Intimidated or muzzled the free press, media and NGO's.

4) Chased out all the foreign investors from Pakistan.

5) Committed High Treason by collaborating with India over Kashmir - though I think that Nawaz Sharif's grand betrayal over Kashmir should be discussed by all of us in a separate topic.

6) Brought deliberate econnomic and social ruination to Pakistan - I believe this was Nawaz Sharif's ultimate goal !

7) Acted as the promoter and leader of all corrupt elements in the country.

Can all the Army haters truly say that General Musharraf is committed to this sort of 7 point programme that 'Ranjit' Nawaz 'Singh' !!!

Give the Chief a chance guys and girls - you will see that in a year Pakistan will be coming out of the black hole that the so-called democrats have led us into, and you will be proved wrong...!!

[s.jawaid]

Salaam

Every one has made some good points.

The basic fact is that the polititions have failed Pakistan and its people,whenever they have come to power their priority has been to eliminate the opposition,line their pockets,crat dynasties and make a mockery of the institutions,especially the judiciary.

They creat the climate for the army to take over.Economically Pakistan has gone backwards since the advant of "Democracy".
Our education system the economy and Law and order are a shamble.
Every time a goverment has been dismissed it has left the coffers empty.

I am at least gratfull that the army,our last great bastian,will not let these parasite and greedy LEADERS tear them apart.

All these LEADERS crying for restoration of democracy should look in to their conchence and ask themselves what did they do to promote and consolidate democracy when they were in power.
"WHY DO YOU WEEP LIKE A WOMEN FOR SOMETING YOU COULD NOT DEFEND LIKE A MAN"

KH

[rasmalai]

Sharif was completely corrupt - how could you allow him to complete his term. If the PM of a western style democracy has such charges against them they are impeached etc. That is because their systems have the necessary checks and balances. sharid mutilated democracy - he demolished all the checks on his power and would have bankrupted not just the exchequer but our entire value system.


You have to stop the rot immediately and sometimes that means using an emergency procedure.