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    What if....

    ...Partition had never happened? Where would we be today? Better off or worse off...

    It is a disturbing question....

    #2
    This is similar to the question "Was Pakistan a political mistake?"

    As I said in that thread, it depends on your viewpoint. Real muslim hard-liners believe Pakistan should never have been created as the Ummah shouldn't be divided on nationalistic lines. Getting rid of Pakistan would not get rid of the jihadis. It would probably make things worse for India as then the mujahideen would not have the internal strife of Pakistan to distract them.

    Hindu hardliners think along the same lines, that India should not be divided. I can't imagine the problems they would have if suddenly their muslim population doubled overnight.

    Anyhow, I think that India has shown with it's treatment of the Kashmiris that it is not mature enough to accept it's muslim citizens with all their differences. A country which can vote in a Hindu nationalist government like the BJP has serious identity problem.

    Anyway, we can't turn back time. Without a Pakistan being created we wouldn't have our wonderful cricket team, our distinctive clothes or the ability to ban Salman Rushdie's books.

    We have a voice now which we would never have had if we had stayed under Hindu domination. Look at the ties we have with other islamic nations; could this have happened if our government was represented by Hindus?

    I know we will get all the usual Indians bleating about me bringing religion and hindus into the equation, but that is the reality. It is the crux of the matter. BJP governments don't come from nowhere and the Indian psyche still has not recovered from the rule of mughals etc. They want their turn.

    Comment


      #3
      Xtreme wrote :
      Hindu hardliners think along the same lines, that India should not be divided. I can't imagine the problems they would have if suddenly their muslim population doubled overnight.

      The topic of the thread is what it would have been like, if there was no partition and not what would have happened if there was a Indo-Pak unification, so where is the question of the Muslim Population doubling overnight.

      Anyhow, I think that India has shown with it's treatment of the Kashmiris that it is not mature enough to accept it's muslim citizens with all their differences. A country which can vote in a Hindu nationalist government like the BJP has serious identity problem.

      Xtreme,I am sure u have enough cells in your head to understand that not all Indian Muslims live in Kashmir.There are a lot of them doing well for themselves in India .In many ways Muslims in India are better off than their counterparts in Pakistan.
      BJP is still to send its cadres across LOC to fight your army, like your 'oh-so-innocent-tolerant-holy' Government did.So stop this bull**** about BJP once and for all.


      Anyway, we can't turn back time. Without a Pakistan being created we wouldn't have our wonderful cricket team, our distinctive clothes or the ability to ban Salman Rushdie's books.

      India, by the way was the first to ban Salman Rushdie's book 'The Satanic Verses'.But I don't know how this fits into the context.

      We have a voice now which we would never have had if we had stayed under Hindu domination. Look at the ties we have with other islamic nations; could this have happened if our government was represented by Hindus?

      Yes, great ties you have with other Islamic Nations !! Particularly, if you belong to the Jamat-e-Islam i.e.

      I know we will get all the usual Indians bleating about me bringing religion and hindus into the equation, but that is the reality. It is the crux of the matter.

      Quite right.You are worse than an average Pakistani on the road shouting anti-Hindu slogans simply because you are educated and still your constipated mind does not allow you to see beyond a Hindu-Muslim canvas.So how do you rate your MUSLIM cricket team's chances against our HINDU cricket team in Australia ??

      Comment


        #4
        at times i wonder how people bring irrational arguments and statements devoid of logic in this forum. instead of showing intelligent argument, he ends up giving statements which not only him but also brings your country in the bad light.
        as i said before, partition was the need of the time. what has happened could not be changed. if it not would have happened?
        well my friend, the seed of poison which was sown in us would not have existed. secondly the money we fought on fighting each other and on procurring arms would have been spend on providing education, health care and many other positive things. thirdly we would not have been pawn at the hands of yesterdays superpowers during the cold war era.

        extreme,
        after independence india has shown great ability to embrace people of different beliefs. it has kept its constitution intact and secular in nature. whereas pakistan which was formed on one single plank that is of religion is on self destruct path right now. you talked of identity, well all countries are trying to promote tourism as a industry to earn valuable foreign exchange whereas you have chosen terrorism to earn foreign exchange. is that what you want to say of having different identity. well pakistan has become a breeding ground of terrorist and is on red alert of every country in the world.
        you say indian government experience has been bad. well with shia and sunnis fighting in pakistan when they are of one religion, i will say that pakistan creation had itself been wrong. because what you did. after fighting with hindus and took pakistan and now are fighting among themselves.

        [This message has been edited by sabah (edited November 24, 1999).]

        Comment


          #5
          If partition had not taken place the total muslim population of India would have been nearly equal to the hindus. The resultant chaos in the form of religious riots would have torn the country apart as both sides would have tried to grab power. One point of theought for all these Indians who are always crowing about the communal harmony and what a wonderful country India is. Why then when Bangladesh broke away from Pakistan with the help of India did they decide to opt for an independent country rather than return to the motherland. There is a message there for the Indians.

          Comment


            #6
            It is a valid question. I don’t know what affect it would have on India (as it stands today), but if it were greater India (Pakistan incorporated), here is what would (not) have happened:

            - no army rule for half of it’s independent life
            - no ruling Elite that owns 90% of the country resources. India took away all phony Titles and stipends that were paid to Nawabs, etc. Pakistan still suffers from Wadaras and Jageerdars, who have their own rules in the territories they control.
            - no institutionalized discrimination against its religious minorities.
            - no more Bongee Urdu Movies, that at best are copied after Bollywood movies. All the talent will then be working out of Bombaby (excuse me, Mombai).
            - Freedom of press, and finally,
            - no prohibition on Alcohol.

            Overall, it would have better had it been a United India.

            Comment


              #7
              So NYA has nailed his colours to the mast. Pigs, prostitutes, Alcohol and India. I appreciate your honesty NYA but I fail to see how you really qualify as a bona-fide Pakistani. If all had your views there wouldn't be a Pakistan. At least you agree with the fundamentalists on one thing.

              Comment


                #8
                India would have the best cricket team in the world.

                Population of India would be highest in the world surpassing China. So a Permanent member of Security council. Also the highest percentage of poor people. Corruption would have been higher.

                Hindus and Muslims would have been almost in same numbers.

                Major languages of India would have been Hindi/Urdu and Bengali.

                - No massacres during India-Pakistan partition.
                - No massacres during fall of Dacca.
                - No Kashmir problem

                Millions of dollars would have been saved
                - Three wars could have been avoided.

                I think it would have been very difficult to manage such a huge country. From Peshawar to Chittagong and Srinagar to Kanyakumari, From Gauhati to Larkana and Chitral to Madras.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Dear Mr. Xtreme, Give me a little credit at least. I am sure as to what I want. You on the other hand don’t have a clue what you want. Sometimes it is Islam, other times it is secularism. Before honoring me with your noble thoughts, take a look at who asked the question? Your Tahajad praying mulla of the Universe. You think he wanted Pakistan? Anyway, thanks for your confidence. Just look at the state of where Pakistan is today, I don’t know who would have thought it would turn out to be like this. However backward it might be, I am proud to call it my land. No one can tell me otherwise.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Asif,

                    Asking such questions is like a throwing salt on the wounds of Muslims. What happened in last five decades to Pakistan, definitely, there exist no justification for its creation. I know these words may provoke some people but the irony of the fact is that when East Pakistan was separated in 1971, where majority of the Muslims live in that part, showed that the creation of the country purely based on religion was false.

                    Maulana Azad, in his book “India Wins Freedom”, said that creation of Pakistan would not be a safe haven for Muslims but in fact it would be division of Muslims in India, hence weakening their strength. Had there being no Pakistan, Muslims population would have been decisive factor in the Politics of India. Muslims have ruled India for centuries, that rule would have continued.

                    Pakistan could have prospered, but soon after its creation, the power was hijacked by certain group, and it rarely saw a glimpse of real democracy. That power group dominated by Punjab, did every thing to usurp the rights of minor provinces with the help of brutal force or playing divide and rule policy in a very crude manner, inherited from Colonials. That is the main reason for failing of the country .

                    What I have said, is not a new thing, Maulana Azad had predicted this 60 years ago in the same book. Quad-e-Azam, who was not even a Muslim, why he suddenly, became the spoke person for Muslims, provoke the emotions on the basis of religion, which he never belonged to.

                    One of the main actor behind Pakistan’s creation was Nehru, who did not want Muslims to be powerful community in India, his vision was that, since majority were Hindus in India, so it was their right to rule. He achieved this objective through the division and weakening of Muslims.


                    Sincerely,

                    FARID M

                    Comment


                      #11
                      the 1940s was an EXTREMLY revolutionary era..muslims,sikhs,hindus and even english soldiers striked together,peasants rebelled against their landlords etc...But the congress party was a party of landlords,middleclass people and capitalists who were against all this.Letters from nehru to Gandhi revealed fear of revolution.Gandhi himself said that the workers were setting a bad example for indians..he once said that religion war was not as bad as a social war!(source:"the legacy of partition"by Sam Ashman in International Socialism).It clearly reveales Gandhis middleclass mind.He has alot of anti revolution statments,statments about not to fight landlords etc.whats more is that the majority of the landowing class in central india were hindu,the majority of peasants were muslim,when Gandhi and Nehru acted like they did people turned against them.The socalled communists(stalinists) and others went from state to state asking muslims to form a seperate state to achieve freedom.It was also a solution which most of the landowner in India supported(even Nehru)..By doing this they were succesfull in turning the masses against each other and they saved their own skin.The muslim landlords in west were afraid of the much larger hindu landlords in the east so they also wanted a state for themselves who could protect them against competition...as we see today ,landlords in pakistan are still in power,they are feudal and can do what ever they want.The muslim league didnt have any majority in the areas which are Pakistan today,except sind and bengal,but still pakistan were created(gandhi and Jinnah drew the maps themselves)Pakistan was created because it suited both the hindu and the muslim landlords.This is one side of the story most people shut up about.But recently historians are beginning to be aware of these sides of Jinnah,Gandhie, Nehru.Even if Gandhi was the mind behind the struggle against british rule he remainded loyal to his class background..The peasants and workers of the subcontinent have NOT been freed,they have just changed their masters..the british ruling class is replaced by an indian and a pakistani one...the only solution today is revolution both in Pakistan and India..when the workers take power the pakistani and the indian people would be united.Because a pakistani worker have more in common with an indian worker than a pakistani general,landlord,capĺitalist etc.And an indian worker have more in common with a pakistani worker than Indian rulers.WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        NYA,

                        You are proud to call Pakistan your land but you seem to hate everything about it. Who is confused here? You don't need to worry about what I want. I am not stupid and if someone can come to me with a better view than the one I currently hold, I am not afraid to change my opinion.

                        That is why I think secular government is the only way forward for the current time. The muslim political groups have shown they are too easily persuaded into fighting each other rather than concentrating on more important issues.

                        I sometimes have difficulty in working out what it is that brings you to Gupshup to be honest. Culturally you seem to have cut yourself off from everything that makes you a Pakistani yet here you are, gupping away with the rest of us. Still, variety is the spice of life and in the new Musharraf era I guess you are welcome.

                        BTW, I agree with you on these points:

                        >- no ruling Elite that owns 90% of the country resources. India took away all phony Titles and stipends that were paid to Nawabs, etc. Pakistan still suffers from Wadaras and Jageerdars, who have their own rules in the territories they control.
                        - no institutionalized discrimination against its religious minorities.<

                        Farid,

                        Very interesting ideas. I guess you are the real deal.

                        Mohabbat,

                        India would have the best cricket team in the world? I don't think too many of our players would have seen the light of day if we were still undivided. Sorry, but you Indian guys haven't come anywhere close to convincing me that India is a mature secular country. When you are, then we won't need to be told. We will see it in your films, in your society and in your prisons where Bal Thackeray and his like will be safely locked up.

                        Now then, Asif miah,

                        You have listened to us giving our confused ramblings. I am sure everybody else is also interested in your views on whether Pakistan was a mistake. What do you think?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Well..interesting...reading your points of view.

                          First of all Mr. NYA, the Qadiani, I am not some 'mulla..etc.' so less of your sarcasm--and though i am a big sinner i am a proud Hanafi Sunni Muslim with links to the Naqshbandi Tariqa and a great admirer of Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmad Raza...and it is these people who voted FOR Pakistan--the Deobandis and others mostly opposed the creation of Pakistan...so I WOULD have voted for it had I been around then...

                          Certainly Qadianis would have been declared Non-Muslims even if India had remained non-partitioned (as they had been declared that as early as 190? by Ala Hazrat..)

                          Anyway, I am not sure. I can see advantages and disadvantages. The advantages would have been like people have mentioned no wars, less defence spending, no kashmir problem...

                          the disadvantages: well it would take a LOT to convince me that the Muslims --who would still be a minority--though a much larger one--prob. about 25%)would have had equal rights as the Hindus; perhaps if there had been special provisions in the Constitution so that the Muslims, although a part of India, but semi-autonomous, governed by themselves--ie.e all the Muslim states must be governed by Muslims and be allowed to have shar'iah law/or whatever they wanted in their states--it would have been better.

                          Certainly the influence would be much greater and there would have been a chance that the Muslims could have wielded political power in India.

                          However, I will be honest and say that although i have no problems with hindus on a 1-2-1 basis, i do not trust them to have the interests of muslims in mind and so this makes me sceptical.

                          IF Partition had been such that ALL the Muslims were in India and ALL the kaafirs in India then that would have been ideal.

                          However, given the reality, I am not so sure. I still cannot help feeling sometimes that India is also my country as a Muslim--becoz we ruled it for 800 years and only when the Brits came did we lose our rule; so i guess there is a feeling of nostalgia which is sometimes quite overpowering that India is still the country which should be ruled by the Muslims of the Subcontinent ---BUT as things actually are now-i am GLAD I am a Pakistani and I am proud of it. I think pakistan should be a country just for Muslims of the Subcontinent as that was the vision of Iqbal and all those who voted for it...

                          If it was guaranteed that the Muslims would be the rulers in an undivided india--then i would have no problems with being united once more.

                          To summarize my ramblings: i would rather live in a Pakistan ruled by Muslims than a India ruled by Hindus; but the ideal would be an undivided India still ruled by the Muslims (i.e. the ultimate ruler and control -say President and PM would HAVE to be Muslims but other peoples would of course be governors, advisors etc. just as in mughal times--but the final rule would have to be by Muslims)

                          After Pakistan, if I could live in any country, even now (with the exception of Madina Sharif) it would probably still be in India, probably in the Muslim quarters of Old DElhi...



                          [This message has been edited by Asif (edited November 24, 1999).]

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Asif wrote..."If it was guaranteed that the Muslims would be the rulers in an undivided india--then i would have no problems with being united once more."

                            I know Muslims ruling undivided India would be the ideal situation...maybe in that case Qazi Hussain Ahmed should be made PM of the country.

                            But how about considering a situation where the people who rule the country are democratically elected without regard to their religious beliefs and an honest and secular person to lead the country. There should be no reserved seats for any community/caste/sect. I know its asking a bit too much but its definitely worth considering !



                            [This message has been edited by BombayKid (edited November 24, 1999).]

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Dear Mr. Xtreme,

                              “You are proud to call Pakistan your land but you seem to hate everything about it.”

                              Says who? What I hate about it is the same as most others do, including yourself. I think you have been away from Pakistan for too long. My friend, people are constantly changing their outlook at life even in the remote villages of Pakistan. The problem is only a few narrow minded shumks who cannot handle the fact that some people want something called “freedom”, and are no longer willing to be oppressed.

                              ”I sometimes have difficulty in working out what it is that brings you to Gupshup to be honest. Culturally you seem to have cut yourself off from everything that makes you a Pakistani yet here you are, gupping away with the rest of us. Still, variety is the spice of life and in the new Musharraf era I guess you are welcome.”

                              Thank you!
                              -------------------------------------
                              Dear Asif, with all your long titles, Greetings!


                              Qadiyanis Rule! They are not considered “Non-Muslim” in India today, at least not by the Government of India. Whereas in Pakistan an Idiot like Z. Bhutto can constitutionally declare Ahmadis as “non-muslim” tells a lot about how strong your faith is. What can stop Musharraf from declaring Shias as non-muslims tomorrow? But that is besides the point. Before venting out against Ahmadis, look at your own state of Religion and Governance. First figure out amongst yourself what it means to be a Pakistani and a Muslim then worry about Ahmadis. Your brain is too sensitive to handle so many problems at once.

                              Comment

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