Democracy in India is a hollow shell

[peshawari]

Democracy in India is a hollow shell

Mr. Arthur Sebastian Bonner noted author and journalist fees that the idea of euologising India as the biggest democracy in the world was a myth. He has edited a book, Democracy in India: A Hollow Shell,
along with Kancha Ilaiah and Suranjit Kumar Saha (American University Press ; 1994).

This book exposes Indian democracy. It has contributions from Asghar Ali Engineer on secularism and Kancha Ilaiah on the
Dalit movement in Hyderabad. There are also articles on RSS' activities in Madhya Pradesh, the growth
of the BJP, the growth of the Dalit movement over the years and a comparison of racism in the U.S.
and casteism in India. There is also an article on the anti-liquor movement by the women of
Andhra Pradesh.

He feels that democracy is a hollow shell in India because caste masks it. He says "Most people, academics
in particular, deny what I believe is the reality. It is caste that determines everything in India. And that
is a real bane. Democracy is used as a mask by the leaders to cover up many things. They talk about democracy
all the time. Democracy in India cannot copy the European system. There has to emerge a democratic structure
that is sui-generis - that which suits India."

[BombayKid]

So, lets see who the "true democracies" are -- England, America...most of Europe ? Lets do a comparison of the records of all these countries with respect to "racism"...it'll be really embarrassing for them !!!

[Some1]

Peshawari.....Everybody in the world can today cite a book to support an opinion he or she chooses to justify.Your posting is just another surrogate effort.
If u want , I can refer books which have been written by far more respected authors about why Pakistan should be declared a terrorist state.
We want your own stuff here, unplugged !!

[Nova]

No one has achieved perfection....
India seems to be on the right track...

[ehsan]

Bombay Kid and some1:

You are always accusing others of turning every discussion into a comment on India when the discussion is about Pakistan. Look what you are doing now, one trying to belittle Europe and the other having a go at Pakistan to justify the most imperfect democracy in the world. A democracy where asking for the right of self determination, which is the basic right in any democracy, means 700,000 soldiers, rape of women and brutal murder of unarmed women, children and men. Great democracy, or great hypocrisy?

[Some1]

And u have just belittled India !!!
Enough of this 'high moral ground' facade.
Learn to play it cool maan.

[sajjadm]

ehsan

you are a maniac, you know it is the militants who are commiting such a crime in the valley, why are you so frustrated when the topic comes on India, I have notice that you have always mentioned the security forces commiting crime and talking of plebicite, you know under the blessing of USA, China and the rest of the world Kashmir will be a state of India for ever. Even your Musharraf's or Shariff's or Butto's can not do anything to please the world or to gain the world support for plebicite in Kashmir. Why don't you give the part of Kashmir occupied by you to India, you have taken by force and we also know how to take it by force but we are good politicians we know how to checkmate you. Very soon Musharraf will declare that the part of POK will be given to India under the blessings of America and the other world leaders.

Because we have rogue nation like Pakistan as a neighbour, we have to have 700,000 (as you so call) forces in Kashmir to protect it from any misadventure. We have stopped trusting Pakistan for any thing because Pakistan has shown its true color after the Lahore agreement what they are capable of (back stabbers).

[commi]

I am from Kashmir and all the kashmiris I know about dont want to be with india or pakistan.What the kashmiris want is a independent state thats all.everyone knows what the indian army is doing in kashmir...eshan is right,even amnesty international claims what eshan is saying...if you dont believe it take a visit to kashmir.The people there will spit on racists like sajjam .

[ZZ]

If all Kashmiris (i.e. part of Kashmiri Sunnis) want is is independent Kashmir, then what was exactly that changed the situation.

Maharaja Hari Singh wanted Kashmir to be independent and it was so for a while till Pakistan sent intruders to capture Kashmir. Involvement of Pakiatsni forces in that scheme is well known, then Hari Singh too help of India and history followed.

If Pakistan did not send intruders to take up Kashmir, it would have stayed independent. Hari Singh's rule would have been slowly changed to democracy as it happened in Nepal or elsewhere.

[commi]

I totally agree with you zz...pakistani involment have made the situation worse,but still India AND PAKISTAN must withdraw theyre
troops from the area,because its only the civilian kashmiri population that suffer,not indians or pakistanis.and thats where the problem lies...it is first and foremost an ideological problem...pakistan must have kashmir because pakistan was created on the stupid idea that hindu and muslims cannot live together and hence kashmir being in India is a problem.(why have pakistan if a state like kashmir with majority muslims can be in india),and india profiles itself as a secular state and cannot accept a muslim majority state breaking away...if that happens punjab,assam,nagaland etc will follow..(even if that doesnt happen it will still shatter the idea of an secular india)
in betwwen these 2 sub imperialists the real independent kashmir movement suffers...not islamabad or delhi but a free kashmir for muslims and hindus and buddhists etc is the solution

[ehsan]

Commi, I agree with you. I have always stated that the Kashmiris should be given the right of self determination. The reality is that the biggest "democracy" in the world will only allow the basic right of democracy to the people of Kashmir when its murderous army has turned the majority there into minority by killing and raping and looting the innocent people. If ZZ thinks Kashmir would have stayed independent if Pakistan had not interferred than what is holding them back to give its due independence now? It is easy to blame others but action should speak louder than words. AS for my own views, if the Kashmirirs decide for independence than yes Azad Kashmir should form an integral part of it. Commi you will not find any Indian agreeing to it. They are all land grabbers and great democrats so long as it suits them.

[This message has been edited by ehsan (edited October 25, 1999).]

[Elegancia]

Dear commi,
How easily you accuse people, man! It hurts...at least it hurts when the things are changing.
I hail from Pune, India.
In the last few years, things have changed dramatically, my friend. Here, we have an organisation called 'Sarhad' which is doing a lot for this cause. Before the Kargil conflict & even after that, they have worked & are working in Kashmir. It's very common that in the aftermath of a war, people tend to do a lot of things (donations, funds) for the army welfare activities & not so much importance is given to the native people of the actual warfront who suffer the same degree or even a greater degree of hardships. These people (Sarhad) have pointed out exactly the same fact & they are doing their bit for this cause. They have provided many villages in those areas with life-support supplies ( a pack for all families containing some 50kgs of rice, grains, kerosene, stove, blanckets, clothes, etc.). I am not telling all this with pride; in fact I don't want to tell these things because I know this the duty of all of us who live in India to help in the bad times of our own family. But what I want to say is that the things are changing & they are changing rapidly. We are learning to work for our family. The support to such activities is increasing. A major newspaper 'Sakal' which is a major contributor to the relief funds is gathering money; a large part of which is to be spent for the recovery of the civilian people from Kashmir.
Not only the relief works, but the workers of 'Sarhad' also do arrange rallies, they meet the people & try to understand their problems & needs. Even the behaviour of the army has considerably changed. They are giving priority to the peace of the commoners.
I know it's easy for us to sit in some distant place & chat about your problems while you live alone & actually face them. But we are changing, improving. In yesteryears, it was like a joint family with very little or no interactions between the members. But it's not going to be the case from now on. We've understood our mistakes & our responsibilities. We'll be working on them. In Kashmir, there wasn't any problem of the Hindu-Muslim conflicts. Some anti-social & communal forces have created the problem. We can solve it if we are sincere; and believe me, the number of sincere people is increasing very rapidly. Just give us a chance. The 'Sarhad', at the moment, doesn't have a great manpower, but it will have, certainly.
Believe me, if you get independence, the people on the other side of the boudary won't let you to be independent for a single week. Then, the situation will be terrible, because those people don't even care for their own soldiers died in the war (reference: their denial of taking charge of the corpses) then what about the civilians who aren't even their part.
So, think about it & if you want to know more about it, please let me know your mail id.

[sajjadm]

ehsan is only refering to what is happening in Indian state of Kashmir why is he not talking of POK where people are suffering like as if they are from a famine striken state.

Ehsan talk something what is relevant today, your government's for the last 52 years could not do anything to get Kashmir from India nor to get the army out of Kashmir, what is your status? talking of plebisicte first give back POK to India and then talk of it.

[This message has been edited by sabah (edited October 26, 1999).]

[commi]

dear elegancia...im only accusing the pakistani and indian goverments for being imperialists,thats all and thats what they are...I know that there wasnt any conflicts between muslims and hindus in kashmir,and im against all such conflicts...i even had hindu kashmiri friends who were for a free kashmir,but theyre uncertain now after the crazy mullah guerilla groups threw out 500000 hindu kashmiris with force...similary muslims are now pro pakistani because of the rapes killings torture commited by the indian army.But if kashmir become independent and pakistan attacks us ,as you suggest,then it will be pakistan who will lose its face and the kashmiris will fight against them,so in that way it will be very stupid thing todo.But now kashmiris are against the indian rule and we must start to solve problems from there...but mail me!:[email protected]

[ZZ]

Commi, there is no possibility of a solution in kashmir which is just betn. Govt of India and Kashmiri Muslims. Pakistani army is an inevitable part, where no solution, however acceptable to Kashmiri leaders, can succeed if Pakistani army does not agree to it. They are capable of sending platoons of punjabis-pathans to disrupt it. And right now, Pakistan will not agree to any solution except maximalist demand of annexing entire Indian kashmir. Tell me how will govt. of pakistan live without Kashmir problem? How will their army keep eating all the resources and tell citizens to tighten belts on hollow stomachs? What for? Independent Kashmir will mean giving away what they have. You believe it will be done. And ur argument is that Pakistan will be exposed in case of mischief, you believe that rulers and army of Pakistan is so bound by conscience that they will not go for mischief since they will lose face. c'mon.


I believe in what Niaz Naik said. There is likelihood that the coup occured since there was a chance of solution. None knows what it was. It is unknown if it was teritorial give and take or joint management or complete autonmomy with security guarantees and maybe some forces. none knows. But once solution comes in paki army has no business to be so strong and this army which is so used to attcking its own citizens will not trim down so easily.