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The US used Pakistani airspace for the drone attack that killed Zawahiri

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    #16
    Originally posted by decentGuy View Post

    Pakistan should have said Absolutely Not!
    Easier said than done

    We had zero friends who were capable enough to withstand the endurance test in case Pakistan was attacked in 2001. You had the Saudi's but they themselves were busy negotiating for NS's safe passage. Our alliance with China, Iran, Russia, Afghanistan wasn't as strong as it is today either

    In his book, Musharraf asked his commanders how long could we defend our land against the americans if we didn't comply, and the air chief literally said minutes to a max two hours. What this tells us is the americans were dead focused on assaulting Pakistan just to get to Afghanistan come what may

    Pakistan's reputation as well as it's economy only took a hit when the US realized Musharraf was playing a double game. Before that, we literally were their most strategic ally's where even India had to take a back seat and watch

    Some may very well disagree but we legit did what was in the best interest for us at the time

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      #17
      Originally posted by Exoduss View Post

      Easier said than done

      We had zero friends who were capable enough to withstand the endurance test in case Pakistan was attacked in 2001. You had the Saudi's but they themselves were busy negotiating for NS's safe passage. Our alliance with China, Iran, Russia, Afghanistan wasn't as strong as it is today either

      In his book, Musharraf asked his commanders how long could we defend our land against the americans if we didn't comply, and the air chief literally said minutes to a max two hours. What this tells us is the americans were dead focused on assaulting Pakistan just to get to Afghanistan come what may

      Pakistan's reputation as well as it's economy only took a hit when the US realized Musharraf was playing a double game. Before that, we literally were their most strategic ally's where even India had to take a back seat and watch

      Some may very well disagree but we legit did what was in the best interest for us at the time
      Let's assume I am wrong. If you think US would have spared Pakistan, you are mistaken. Just how Pakistani land and air was used to attack Afghanistan. Afghanistan's land and air was to be used against Pakistan had Taliban not defeated the US. There were more than 40 Indian "consulates" dotted on the Pakistan-Afghan border under US umbrella wreaking havoc in Pakistan. US goal was to soften-up the target before striking. Many top Pakistani officers had secretly stopped following the orders of Pervaiz Musharraf because they knew that Musharraf was only siding with the US for personal benefits so he could stay in power longer. One such officer was Ashfaq Pervaiz Kiyani. His role was instrumental in getting rid of Musharraf but by that time many things had already gotten out of control. After American bases in Afghanistan were established, Americans were ready to start bombing settled areas of Pakistan but Kiyani frustrated them so they bombed Salala to send a message to Kiyani. Pakistan owes a lot to the Taliban as they refused to return the favor to Pakistan by not letting US bomb Pakistan in return for ceasing US's operations inside Afghanistan.

      Comment


        #18
        Pervez Musharaf, ex CAOS and CEO Pakistan = Master of U-Turn who peed in his paints when Assistant Secretary of State called him and told him "Either you are with us or against us", that US would bomb Pakistan to stone age. He immediately withdrew the support to Taliban and therefore army of Northern Alliance entered Kabul without firing a bullet. After Yahya Khan he was the most shameful, coward, drunkard and corrupt CAOS happened to Pakistan who took over illegally from NS on the justification of corruption and promised to eliminating it with in no times. The corruption increased many folds than NS's PML(N) government during his tenure. He also handed over many including Afia Siddiqui to Americans for peanuts. It is a shameful history of Pakistan.

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          #19
          Originally posted by decentGuy View Post

          Let's assume I am wrong. If you think US would have spared Pakistan, you are mistaken. Just how Pakistani land and air was used to attack Afghanistan. Afghanistan's land and air was to be used against Pakistan had Taliban not defeated the US. There were more than 40 Indian "consulates" dotted on the Pakistan-Afghan border under US umbrella wreaking havoc in Pakistan. US goal was to soften-up the target before striking. Many top Pakistani officers had secretly stopped following the orders of Pervaiz Musharraf because they knew that Musharraf was only siding with the US for personal benefits so he could stay in power longer. One such officer was Ashfaq Pervaiz Kiyani. His role was instrumental in getting rid of Musharraf but by that time many things had already gotten out of control. After American bases in Afghanistan were established, Americans were ready to start bombing settled areas of Pakistan but Kiyani frustrated them so they bombed Salala to send a message to Kiyani. Pakistan owes a lot to the Taliban as they refused to return the favor to Pakistan by not letting US bomb Pakistan in return for ceasing US's operations inside Afghanistan.
          Umm, the US would not have spared Pakistan if it didn't cooperate is pretty much what i've been trying to say. Afghanistan was used and abused because of some infidels in the top brass of the Taliban who allowed Al Qaeda the leeway to conduct mind blowing operations against the US. Only fair the US came after the people or the country responsible, as should any country do who's sovereignty isn't respected and is attacked. What some of us often forget is what happened to the US on that unfortunate day was pretty messed up, it had them shook to their absolute cores, and more so since the US at the time was busy flaunting about how it's super invincible and powerful to the whole world. Pakistan was a key strategic gateway for them to carry on with their so called counter attacks, and it mustn't have mattered to them if we complied or not

          When the US on purpose bombed a Pakistani outpost around the Pak Afghan border in 2011, guess who was the COAS? General Pervaiz Ashfaq Kiyani. Twenty four Pakistani soldiers lost their lives including a Major, and this sellout of a COAS couldn't even muster up the courage to get the US to apologize. Raymond Davis killed Pakistani's and fled off scot free, COAS at the time? Kayani

          And you're trying to compare this douchebag with Musharaf. Anything else this clown was good at other than being a straight up sellout was playing friends with NS and SS

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Sachaydino View Post
            Pervez Musharaf, ex CAOS and CEO Pakistan = Master of U-Turn who peed in his paints when Assistant Secretary of State called him and told him "Either you are with us or against us", that US would bomb Pakistan to stone age. He immediately withdrew the support to Taliban and therefore army of Northern Alliance entered Kabul without firing a bullet. After Yahya Khan he was the most shameful, coward, drunkard and corrupt CAOS happened to Pakistan who took over illegally from NS on the justification of corruption and promised to eliminating it with in no times. The corruption increased many folds than NS's PML(N) government during his tenure. He also handed over many including Afia Siddiqui to Americans for peanuts. It is a shameful history of Pakistan.
            Right

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Exoduss View Post
              In his book, Musharraf asked his commanders how long could we defend our land against the americans if we didn't comply, and the air chief literally said minutes to a max two hours.
              No such account of Air Chief exists in the book.

              Originally posted by Exoduss View Post

              Umm, the US would not have spared Pakistan if it didn't cooperate is pretty much what i've been trying to say. Afghanistan was used and abused because of some infidels in the top brass of the Taliban who allowed Al Qaeda the leeway to conduct mind blowing operations against the US. Only fair the US came after the people or the country responsible, as should any country do who's sovereignty isn't respected and is attacked. What some of us often forget is what happened to the US on that unfortunate day was pretty messed up, it had them shook to their absolute cores, and more so since the US at the time was busy flaunting about how it's super invincible and powerful to the whole world. Pakistan was a key strategic gateway for them to carry on with their so called counter attacks, and it mustn't have mattered to them if we complied or not

              When the US on purpose bombed a Pakistani outpost around the Pak Afghan border in 2011, guess who was the COAS? General Pervaiz Ashfaq Kiyani. Twenty four Pakistani soldiers lost their lives including a Major, and this sellout of a COAS couldn't even muster up the courage to get the US to apologize. Raymond Davis killed Pakistani's and fled off scot free, COAS at the time? Kayani

              And you're trying to compare this douchebag with Musharaf. Anything else this clown was good at other than being a straight up sellout was playing friends with NS and SS
              I can see you understood me well but pretending otherwise. I said the US was not going to spare Pakistan after establishing bases in Afghanistan.

              As far as post-Musharraf time was concerned, I will go as far as to say that after Salala, Kyani should have permanently discontinued the air and land corridor facility given to the US by Musharraf. In fact, right after kicking out Musharraf, Kyani should have done so. Also Pakistan should not have released Raymond Davis instead should've hanged him. Those were indeed shortcomings of Kyani and I will not defend those shortcomings. Still his role in kicking out Musharraf is something I appreciate.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by decentGuy View Post
                No such account of Air Chief exists in the book.


                I can see you understood me well but pretending otherwise. I said the US was not going to spare Pakistan after establishing bases in Afghanistan.

                As far as post-Musharraf time was concerned, I will go as far as to say that after Salala, Kyani should have permanently discontinued the air and land corridor facility given to the US by Musharraf. In fact, right after kicking out Musharraf, Kyani should have done so. Also Pakistan should not have released Raymond Davis instead should've hanged him. Those were indeed shortcomings of Kyani and I will not defend those shortcomings. Still his role in kicking out Musharraf is something I appreciate.
                He wrote in length about it in his book

                Pretend is a pretty harsh term. But I guess all goes as long as you're fixed on trying to prove yourself right

                If IK said absolutely not to the US back when 9/11 took place, pretty sure we'd already be bombed to stoneage within months if not weeks. Musharraf had the self awareness to understand logic wins over emotions when it comes to national security. Modi attacked Pakistan a few days after NS invited the boy over to Pakistan

                In hindsight, Kiyani is forgiven for the mistakes he committed while Musharraf gets no second chances. Cute!

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Exoduss View Post

                  Easier said than done

                  We had zero friends who were capable enough to withstand the endurance test in case Pakistan was attacked in 2001. You had the Saudi's but they themselves were busy negotiating for NS's safe passage. Our alliance with China, Iran, Russia, Afghanistan wasn't as strong as it is today either

                  In his book, Musharraf asked his commanders how long could we defend our land against the americans if we didn't comply, and the air chief literally said minutes to a max two hours. What this tells us is the americans were dead focused on assaulting Pakistan just to get to Afghanistan come what may

                  Pakistan's reputation as well as it's economy only took a hit when the US realized Musharraf was playing a double game. Before that, we literally were their most strategic ally's where even India had to take a back seat and watch

                  Some may very well disagree but we legit did what was in the best interest for us at the time
                  Afghanistan was never an ally even under Taliban as they still pretended that the Durand Line issue existed.

                  Look at cricket today. Afghanistan's biggest rivalry is against Pakistan since we are their "enemy" while we couldn't give two hoots about them as India vs Pakistan is a bigger draw for us.


                  None of these other countries wanted Taliban to stay in 2001 and it looks history will repeat itself with Taliban supporting / allowing terrorism especially against Pakistan ironically. The other shoe will drop no matter how sophisticated some of the mullah do piyazas that can vex some good english poetry that staff the Taliban MFA.

                  Pervez Kayani supported the americans as much or more so than Musharraf. Look at the sharp increase in drone strikes in Pakistan under his tenure.



                  All the lies of the salafist pigs and their deobandi enablers have been proven false since TTP has been more energized and attacking Pakistan right now when supposedly islamic brother Taliban are in power in Afghanistan. Remember, there is no sayhooni yahoodi hindu budhist kafir saazish existing in Afghanistan to blame anyone but the Taliban.


                  Frankly, I have no islamic or any brotherly love for Taliban who reject the Quran. I know that salafist and now their deobandi handlers reject hadeeth if it doesn't suit them but women's education and right to marry / property among other non-islamic acts of Taliban aren't supported by the Quran. Many islamic alims have told the taliban to mend their ways but they are BSing their way through power since they really don't have Islamic basis to back up their actions. Their supporters should remember that they are supporting near Kaafirs who support murderers against Pakistani state and its innocent civilians.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Exoduss View Post

                    He wrote in length about it in his book

                    Pretend is a pretty harsh term. But I guess all goes as long as you're fixed on trying to prove yourself right

                    If IK said absolutely not to the US back when 9/11 took place, pretty sure we'd already be bombed to stoneage within months if not weeks. Musharraf had the self awareness to understand logic wins over emotions when it comes to national security. Modi attacked Pakistan a few days after NS invited the boy over to Pakistan

                    In hindsight, Kiyani is forgiven for the mistakes he committed while Musharraf gets no second chances. Cute!
                    Fear of the US and personal interests were, are and will form the basis of Musharraf's and his supporters' arguments, not interests of Pakistan !

                    Anyway, this discussion reminded me of this Go Musharraf Go song:

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Doppelganger View Post

                      Afghanistan was never an ally even under Taliban as they still pretended that the Durand Line issue existed.

                      Look at cricket today. Afghanistan's biggest rivalry is against Pakistan since we are their "enemy" while we couldn't give two hoots about them as India vs Pakistan is a bigger draw for us.


                      None of these other countries wanted Taliban to stay in 2001 and it looks history will repeat itself with Taliban supporting / allowing terrorism especially against Pakistan ironically. The other shoe will drop no matter how sophisticated some of the mullah do piyazas that can vex some good english poetry that staff the Taliban MFA.

                      Pervez Kayani supported the americans as much or more so than Musharraf. Look at the sharp increase in drone strikes in Pakistan under his tenure.



                      All the lies of the salafist pigs and their deobandi enablers have been proven false since TTP has been more energized and attacking Pakistan right now when supposedly islamic brother Taliban are in power in Afghanistan. Remember, there is no sayhooni yahoodi hindu budhist kafir saazish existing in Afghanistan to blame anyone but the Taliban.


                      Frankly, I have no islamic or any brotherly love for Taliban who reject the Quran. I know that salafist and now their deobandi handlers reject hadeeth if it doesn't suit them but women's education and right to marry / property among other non-islamic acts of Taliban aren't supported by the Quran. Many islamic alims have told the taliban to mend their ways but they are BSing their way through power since they really don't have Islamic basis to back up their actions. Their supporters should remember that they are supporting near Kaafirs who support murderers against Pakistani state and its innocent civilians.
                      Taliban as well as Afghanistan have always been aligned towards Pakistan minus the few foreign funded muppets who try their best to be a matchstick, and often be falling face first. History tells us hostility towards Pakistan is something Afghanistan just cannot afford. The pashtuns on either sides of the border will never let these third party powers create a rift in between these two countries no matter the endless amounts of monies invested. Mazhabi ghairat is apparently still a thing for them

                      Inzamam, Azhar mehmood and a few others contributed in the rise of Afghanistan cricket when the country was being torn in pieces. You need to get your facts straight before chiming into affairs you're clearly very very unaware of

                      Ask the americans, israelis or the indians the same question and they will probably knock some sense into how Musharraf was a legend while Kiyani was just your everyday pawn

                      Comment

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