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    A Pacifist Uncovered- Ghaffar Khan [Split discussion]

    Originally posted by Islamabad:
    A traitor he was!
    He was a traitor to Pakistan.

    #2
    And are all those Pakistanis now traitors who want good relations with India?

    What did your Pakistan get you? Thousands of Punjabis killed, Muhajirs killed, Pashtuns killed, Hindus killed, Muslims killed, Sikhs killed and families divided. In 50+ years multiple overthrows of different leaders and regimes.

    Ignorance, may God save us all from this evil.

    The only reason he is traitor is because he is a Pashtun.

    Just like the British, the non-Pashtuns of that region canít digest a Pashtun intellectual.

    The Suri, Ghori, Ghazni, Abdali = Pathan bogyman = hundreds of years of physiological traumatizing, something that is now genetic.

    May God have mercy on your souls. :- )

    Comment


      #3
      What did your Pakistan get you? Thousands of Punjabis killed, Muhajirs killed, Pashtuns killed, Hindus killed, Muslims killed, Sikhs killed and families divided. In 50+ years multiple overthrows of different leaders and regimes.
      Would you please explain what you mean by "Your Pakistan"? Is it not yours? If not, let me know and I will tell you what my Pakistan gave to a lot of people. For one thing it gave refuge, a livelihood and succor to a bunch of thankless beghairat little $%@!$%@ without a country who now go around sullying its name.

      Comment


        #4
        Baacha Khan wanted what Musharraf is doing now. Baacha Khan was indeed a visionary leader wasted by the Wasdaira/Chodhry beauracracy of Pakistan.

        Comment


          #5
          True in some ways funguy. If Ghaffar Khan was alive today, he would likely agree with many aspects of musharraf's anti-terrorist agenda.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Sultan Suri:
            The Suri, Ghori, Ghazni, Abdali = Pathan bogyman = hundreds of years of physiological traumatizing, something that is now genetic.

            May God have mercy on your souls. :- )
            They aren't bogeyman. You should read some unbiased history of how afghan and arab invaders plundered, raped and looted the civilization of india. It's only your arrogance that makes you proud of such history like so many other brainwashed pakistanis.

            Comment


              #7
              Is it my country, you tell me is it my country?

              Control your temper bhai jaan, everything goes two ways. If you gave refuge then they gave lives. If you gave livelihood they helped stash a lot pockets.

              By the way, do not forget the fundamentalism you provided, the Arabs you provided, the Jihadis you provided, and the Taliban you provided.

              The above mentioned are the reasons why those thankless beghairats are sullying its name. Tell me what would have you done if you were in their place, considering that their country gave you the same refuge, livelihood, and succor that Pakistan has given them.


              Originally posted by mufakkar:
              Would you please explain what you mean by "Your Pakistan"? Is it not yours? If not, let me know and I will tell you what my Pakistan gave to a lot of people. For one thing it gave refuge, a livelihood and succor to a bunch of thankless beghairat little $%@!$%@ without a country who now go around sullying its name.

              Comment


                #8
                Thanks, that made things clear.

                Originally posted by Zakk:
                Suri: Ghaffar Khan made mistakes a fact best reflected by Dr Khan Sahibs actions ...his biggest was his blind faith in Gandhi and the Congress party. The Khudai Khidmatgar movement was a unique social reform movement in the pakhtun belt..what changed was when it turned into a secular political wing of the Congress party. The Congress Party's goals were not in the interest of pashtuns or Muslims. ...even so key chances were missed..for example the attempted reconcilliation meeting between him and Jinnah..the COngress provincial government in NWFP could have been saved..and he could have accepted a deal with Iskandier Mirza..who had great respect for the "Khan" brothers.

                However it is to his credit despite all provocations he never resorted to violence as a means of promoting his cause...

                Comment


                  #9
                  Is it my country, you tell me is it my country?

                  Control your temper bhai jaan, everything goes two ways. If you gave refuge then they gave lives. If you gave livelihood they helped stash a lot pockets.

                  By the way, do not forget the fundamentalism you provided, the Arabs you provided, the Jihadis you provided, and the Taliban you provided.

                  The above mentioned are the reasons why those thankless beghairats are sullying its name. Tell me what would have you done if you were in their place, considering that their country gave you the same refuge, livelihood, and succor that Pakistan has given them.
                  1. It is your country if you choose to embrace it. If you choose to hate then there is no land on this Earth that is yours.

                  2. The Taliban are suddenly Pakistani now? It is the topic of a separate thread but have a look at the events leading up to the rise of the Taliban and Pakistan's consequent support of it. You might be interested particularly in how some beghairats kidnapped a bus full of school kids from Peshawar (now that was a real manly thing to do) and how they beat up Pakistan's ambassador to Afghanistan at the time. There are many other reasons and many books written on the subject that show the Taliban were an afghan movement, supported by Pakistan because at the time they were the best alternative. The arabs and the fundamentalism came with the cash which at the time no one seemed to refuse and now everyone is oh so honourable. Also please acknowledge us for the weapons and tactical training that we provided.

                  3. Your last sentence is really interesting. I have never heard of Pakistani refugees in Afghanistan, There are Pakistani prisoners held for ransom by Afghan mercenaries thanks to the Taliban commanders who ran away in burqas at the last minute and left these poor souls in the lurch. What exactly are you talking about?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Let me rephrase it for you:

                    The above mentioned are the reasons why those thankless beghairats are sullying its name. Tell me what would have you done if you were in their place, assuming (we are pretending here now) that their country gave you the same refuge, livelihood, and succor that Pakistan has given them.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Let me simplify this for you:

                      When you take refuge in someone's home you do not say bad things about it (at least honourable people don't) especially when a lot of your shenanigans are overlooked (drugs, mercenaries for hire, kidnappings etc etc etc) If you do not agree with the policies of the host don't go there. The Islamic Republic of Iran was also taking refugees which it strictly restricted to refugee camps, you could have gone there and talked badly about Pakistan to your hearts content. Not that it affects Pakistan one little bit but we are talking about the honourable thing to do.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Also please acknowledge us for the weapons and tactical training that we provided. Interesting comment :- )

                        We all know what and who the Taliban were and where they originated from. We all know that how many protests there were in Pakistan and how many there were in Afghanistan (if there were any) when the US decided to attack Afghanistan and topple the Taliban regime. The Taliban were an Afghan movement, but the key point here like you said is ďsupportedĒ and they were sponsored by Pakistan. Therefore everything they did, wrong or right was Pakistans responsibility and Pakistan can be held responsible, especially in the eyes of average Afghans.

                        Now some beghairats who supported their brothers in Islam, encouraged their movement for at least 10 years, provided moral and technical support, shifted hundreds of them to Kashmir, used their government as proxy, all of the sudden very proudly dropped & abandoned them when they heard ďEither with us, or themĒ from big gura mama Bush. On which a US senator reportedly said on national TV that ďthe Pakistanis will sell their mothers if they have toĒ. It was an historic U turn. That was a big honorable thing to do I am sure, drop your brothers, your comrades, and then arrest their government officials and hand them to the people requiring them without giving them any kind of support for that matter any political asylum. Let us also acknowledge situations in Waziristan, molesting, humiliating, stripping and demolishing the homes of the very tribesmen that fought for Pakistan in 1947 and after that in Kashmir because again big gura mamu asks you. Seriously, if there was no pressure from big gura mamu, would you think Pakistan would still do it because they want to get rid of the "terrorists"?

                        As far as drugs matter, watch the movie Traffik (British version) and you will see how Afghan drugs get to the rest of the world and who the big ballers actually are. They just grow the plant son, the actual cooking happens in Pakistani cities. If you go to Islamabad, check out some of the houses of the generals there, since I know a few, you will find many with gardens decorated by Afghan poppies, ask them where did they get it from.

                        Mercenaries for hire, kidnappings etc. etc. who hires them to do all that? These are refugees, name one country where the refugees have not resorted to such things to support their families? The Cubans in America are famous for this, the Cambodians, Koreans, North Vietnamese, Iraqis, the Palestinians and the Philippines etc. etc. are all notorious for their deeds in their neighboring countries or where they have taken refuge. Just like Pakistan supported the evil Taliban, the same way a lot of Pakistanis supports and supported these evil mercenaries. I know at least a dozen landlords and Khans that use the Afghan refugees to do their dirty. Itís not like they canít find anyone in Pakistan to do it, itís that the Afghanis cost less and since they are war children, they get the job done right.

                        Also donít refer to me as a refugee here son, the land on which my family lives has been there for us for the past 500 years. If someone here is a refugee it is Pakistan, only 60 years old. (technically speaking)

                        btw, you didn't answer my question.

                        Remember, all I am asking you to understand why some Afghans hate Pakistan. If you still dont understand then answer my question.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          We all know what and who the Taliban were and where they originated from. We all know that how many protests there were in Pakistan and how many there were in Afghanistan (if there were any) when the US decided to attack Afghanistan and topple the Taliban regime. The Taliban were an Afghan movement, but the key point here like you said is ďsupportedĒ and they were sponsored by Pakistan. Therefore everything they did, wrong or right was Pakistans responsibility and Pakistan can be held responsible, especially in the eyes of average Afghans.
                          What??? So India supports the Northern Alliance, now if the NA commits genocide of Pashtuns then that is India's fault?

                          Now some beghairats who supported their brothers in Islam,
                          Oh please, this has been discussed to death here a million times. We tried to help the Taliban but no they had to act all macho at the time all for one man, we were certainly not going to turn our land into a parking lot because of a few thankless Afghans who were later on going to show what they were made of BY RUNNING AWAY IN BURQAS leaving Pakistani volunteers (who came from every province) at the mercy of the NA goons good going!

                          Moreover these "Brothers in Islam" had been testing our patience for quite a while by giving refuge to wanted Pakistani criminals such as Riaz Basra. This is the reality of these "Brothers in Islam" backstabbers.

                          As far as drugs matter, watch the movie Traffik (British version) and you will see how Afghan drugs get to the rest of the world and who the big ballers actually are. They just grow the plant son, the actual cooking happens in Pakistani cities. If you go to Islamabad, check out some of the houses of the generals there, since I know a few, you will find many with gardens decorated by Afghan poppies, ask them where did they get it from.
                          Oh yeah I forgot, movies tell the truth. You know you should watch Chuck Norris movies to see the reality of Arab Cowards, or watching Rambo III will make you realize that those lazy Afghan bums did nothing during the war. Old Sylvester had to come down and kick some Soviet butt. Simple fact. Before 1979 no drug problem in PAkistan. No AK47 culture. After 1979 came refugees and drugs and weapons simple co-relation.

                          If you know a few generals then go ahead and name them and we'll see whats what.

                          Mercenaries for hire, kidnappings etc. etc. who hires them to do all that? These are refugees, name one country where the refugees have not resorted to such things to support their families? The Cubans in America are famous for this, the Cambodians, Koreans, North Vietnamese, Iraqis, the Palestinians and the Philippines etc. etc. are all notorious for their deeds in their neighboring countries or where they have taken refuge. Just like Pakistan supported the evil Taliban, the same way a lot of Pakistanis supports and supported these evil mercenaries. I know at least a dozen landlords and Khans that use the Afghan refugees to do their dirty. Itís not like they canít find anyone in Pakistan to do it, itís that the Afghanis cost less and since they are war children, they get the job done right.
                          This is your excuse?? Everybody else is doing it and so should we? In the preceding paragraphs Taliban were brothers in Islam and now they are evil. You are I am afraid not very consistent. Who was forcing these refugees to become mercenaries? If they were so honourable why couldn't they stay that way? This is all BS

                          Also donít refer to me as a refugee here son, the land on which my family lives has been there for us for the past 500 years. If someone here is a refugee it is Pakistan, only 60 years old. (technically speaking)
                          This is just sentimental crap when people run out of arguments. Been there for us for 500 years indeed. There was an election in case you forgot and the federating units opted for Pakistan ok sonny boy? End of story. Cave dwellers who haven't had a stable government since 1747 are telling us who refugees are....

                          Comment


                            #14
                            What??? So India supports the Northern Alliance, now if the NA commits genocide of Pashtuns then that is India's fault?

                            Yes it is, though comparing Indiaís involvement with NA with Pakistanís involvement with the Taliban is a laughing matter.

                            Oh please, this has been discussed to death here a million times. We tried to help the Taliban but no they had to act all macho at the time all for one man, we were certainly not going to turn our land into a parking lot because of a few thankless Afghans who were later on going to show what they were made of BY RUNNING AWAY IN BURQAS leaving Pakistani volunteers (who came from every province) at the mercy of the NA goons good going!

                            Who ran away in Burqas? As far as I know they were said to have retreated to the mountains and were preparing to make a come back. These sources that made these statements were Pakistani. Or are you now eating your own words? Even now Pakistani reporters claim of a miraculous return of the infidel fighting Talibs. As far as Pakistani volunteers are concerned, well thatís what will happen in war to chappal carrying members of the many Jihadi/jummatis running and operating from Pakistan when caught by the enemy forces. Be it Indian or NA. What were you expecting of the NA, we all know how much love they have for Pakistan. Now to the point Taliban abandoning them, Pakistani sources, including many of the Mullahs from Pakistan later reported that it was ďmiscommunicationĒ. Though who can blame them, like father like son, one lowered his head at gura mamus word and the other tucked its tail after seeing gura mamus gun. Btw are you also telling me that many of the madrassass opperated from Pakistan for Jihadis were ran by Afghans? ahahah what a joke.

                            Don't act or pretend to be civilized son, the world knows, and there is a reason why Musharaf is kissing Indias behind all over. Thanks to this kissing of behinds (be it Guras or Indians) we now have Indians playing cricket in Pakistan. Donít act dumb, Pakistan was caught with it's pants down, so much so that Pakistan had to humiliate our national hero to save the tails of a few gheraiti generals.

                            Moreover these "Brothers in Islam" had been testing our patience for quite a while by giving refuge to wanted Pakistani criminals such as Riaz Basra. This is the reality of these "Brothers in Islam" backstabbers.

                            Yeah well what took you so long, did it had to take Gura Mamu to convence you that these ďBrothers in IslamĒ were backstabbers no good losers? Please, give this to someone else. You are eating it with a sugar spoon. Now thatís what I call BS.

                            Oh yeah I forgot, movies tell the truth. You know you should watch Chuck Norris movies to see the reality of Arab Cowards, or watching Rambo III will make you realize that those lazy Afghan bums did nothing during the war. Old Sylvester had to come down and kick some Soviet butt. Simple fact. Before 1979 no drug problem in Pakistan. No AK47 culture. After 1979 came refugees and drugs and weapons simple co-relation.

                            It is a documentary movie. From CIA to ISI and to many Pakistani generals, all of pockets were full with Afghan drug money. Maybe this was the reason to topple/drop the Taliban since they curbed their haram pocket money.

                            This is your excuse?? Everybody else is doing it and so should we? In the preceding paragraphs Taliban were brothers in Islam and now they are evil. You are I am afraid not very consistent. Who was forcing these refugees to become mercenaries? If they were so honourable why couldn't they stay that way? This is all BS

                            And donít you think it is very arrogant of you to blame the actions of a few on an entire nation or people? Heck at least these Afghans that are in question were/are individuals compared to a government that exploited another nation and its people for its own vast interests and the vast interests of a few geharaiti generals.

                            This is just sentimental crap when people run out of arguments. Been there for us for 500 years indeed. There was an election in case you forgot and the federating units opted for Pakistan ok sonny boy? End of story. Cave dwellers who haven't had a stable government since 1747 are telling us who refugees are....

                            Where I live there is was no election. Where I am from, there Pakistan's government has to knock before it enters. So you can stick that election somewhere where it matters. When you enter our areas, it says clearly before you enter that the auhtority of Pakistan ends here. IN THE HEART OF PAKISTAN son. In the heart of Pakistan. *kiss

                            Btw, I admit that the cave dwellers didnít have a stable government for a long time, and may God give them one (be careful what you ask for), though in the past 60 years of Pakistan, since when did Pakistan have a stable government or for that matter a stable regime? Even Pakistani scholars have prophesied its extinction in the coming years. Many books both by Pakistanis and non-Pakistani writers have been published on how Pakistan is a failed state. How it is a treat to global peace as we see that rogue states are gaining secrets to weapons of mass destruction for pennies to fill the pockets of a few gheraiti generals.

                            So please kid, save it.

                            I donít wish to further deviate from the thread.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Imdad Ali:


                              They aren't bogeyman. You should read some unbiased history of how afghan and arab invaders plundered, raped and looted the civilization of india. It's only your arrogance that makes you proud of such history like so many other brainwashed pakistanis.
                              Which civilizaiton have they destroyed in the land of shudras and brahmins? Who has written an unbiased history of this region? Sher Shah Suri was one of the best ruler India has ever had. He was not only a good soldier but also a formidable administrator. Sher Shah threw Moghals out of India and established a very well functioning administration. He built roads and gave full protection to the peasant who are still strugling to get their proper rights in this Islami Republic.

                              Shah Abdali is one the most controversial figure in the history of this region. Indians hate him and Pakhtuns revere him. If there had been no Abdali to protect the muslims of northern India and Punjab, today all of them would be speaking marathi. Abdali defeated the combined forces of Marathas, jats and Sikhs in the battle of Panipat and thus destroyed the dream of Hindus to rule northern india for good. If you have read the history then you should have also read the crimes committed by Sikhs during their rule over Punjab. Sikhs forbade Azan, declared cow slaughter a crime, shahi mosque of lahore used as baroodkhana and the tomb of jehangir was turned into stable and not to forget the fate of thousands of muslim punjabi girls who were compelled into prostituion for the sikhs. And it is not a myth, even Sherbaz Mazari mentions thess facts in his book.


                              The problem with some Pakistanis (esp. with punjabis and mohajirs) is that they consider indians timid and chicken and give them examples of those brave mulsim soldiers who came from the north and established powerful mslim empires on indian soil and most of them trace their ancestries to those soldiers, and the same brave soldiers became plunderers and marauders when they argue with pakhtuns or afghans.

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