Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

U.S. troops fix bayonets against Iraqi crowd - 10,000 Shia's march against occupation

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    U.S. troops fix bayonets against Iraqi crowd - 10,000 Shia's march against occupation

    From the suburbs of Baghdad to the south, Iraqi people continue to resist the American occupiers, and all the American troops can do is point their bayonets at them. Some 'liberation' this is...




    U.S. Troops Fix Bayonets Against Iraqi Crowd

    U.S. Marines fixed bayonets on Sunday to disperse an angry crowd of 10,000 Iraqi Shi'ites in the holy city of Najaf after tempers flared over rumors of U.S. harassment of a radical cleric. Marchers dispersed after two hours but some of the Shi'ite cleric's supporters warned of an "uprising" in the city if the Americans failed to pull out within three days. "If they don't leave, they will face a popular uprising," said Sayed Razak al-Moussawi, an aide to the anti-U.S. cleric Moqtada al-Sadr. Protesters presented the U.S. forces with a list of demands. Under a fierce sun, aides to Sadr struggled to restrain his supporters and the show of force by the Marines halted the march on the U.S. administration office in the dusty and impoverished city, 160 km (100 miles) south of Baghdad.

    In heated negotiations, nose-to-nose with one of Sadr's aides, the U.S. commander in Najaf, Lieutenant-Colonel Chris Conlin, denied reports his men had surrounded Sadr's house on Saturday and warned his men would respond if threatened. Passions sparked by the incident were indicative of problems facing U.S. troops among the long-oppressed Shi'ite majority. Attacks on U.S. troops since the fall of Saddam Hussein have mostly been by Sunni Muslims. Many protesters were bussed into Najaf from Baghdad's poor Shi'ite bastion, Sadr -- formerly Saddam -- City. Others rode in on battered pick-up trucks and even ambulances.

    "Moqtada, have no fear, your army of volunteers is here," they chanted, rhythmically beating their chests in a traditional Shi'ite ritual. "We would sacrifice our lives for you." The demonstration set off from the gold-domed Imam Ali mosque. Carrying banners, the crowd circled the mosaic-encrusted shrine, inspiring worshippers to join in their political chants. "Long live Sadr; America and its government in Iraq are infidels," cried Ayyad Abdullah, who like many protesters, wore the white shroud in which Muslims are buried. "Moqtada can give the Shi'ites everything they want. We'd happily die for him." Conlin said he believed Sadr had limited support in Najaf, where other, more senior religious figures are based. Sadr, a young cleric with limited religious authority, denounced the U.S. occupation of Iraq in a sermon on Friday and condemned U.S. efforts to launch self-rule by a new Governing Council.

    #2
    Re: U.S. troops fix bayonets against Iraqi crowd - 10,000 Shia's march against occupation

    Originally posted by Malik73:
    U.S. Marines fixed bayonets on Sunday to disperse an angry crowd of 10,000 Iraqi Shi'ites in the holy city of Najaf after tempers flared over rumors of U.S. harassment of a radical cleric.
    None of this seems to be going well for the occupying forces. Alongwith Kurds, it's the Shi'ites who traditionally suffered the most under Hussein's regime - and yet here we have 10,000 Shi'ites marching against the British and American occupying forces. The US and UK wanted democracy in Iraq - here's proof of that "democracy": popular protests and taking to the streets.

    Funny thing is, when the same type of protests occur in Iran, that is perceived of as democracy in action; when we have protests against the US in Iraq, everyone seems to ignore them.

    What further messages do the people of this beleaguered country have to send to the occupying forces that they are not welcome anymore? For heaven's sake get the message and leave before more innocent bodybags are brought back to the US.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Re: U.S. troops fix bayonets against Iraqi crowd - 10,000 Shia's march against occupation

      Originally posted by Nadia_H:
      Funny thing is, when the same type of protests occur in Iran, that is perceived of as democracy in action; when we have protests against the US in Iraq, everyone seems to ignore them.

      Comment


        #4
        Big difference between the protests in the two countries: in Iran they are protesting against an oppressive theocratic regime so that they might taste democracy. In Iraq it is those who advocate a theocratic (i.e. oppressive) government who are protesting, which flies in the face of a truly democratic system.

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks, Spoon :~) It's hard to get flowers in this Forum!

          Originally posted by Seminole:
          In Iraq it is those who advocate a theocratic (i.e. oppressive) government who are protesting, which flies in the face of a truly democratic system.


          No, not necessarily IMHO. Many individuals protesting in Iraq are protesting not for an oppressive government... just a government that they can call their own. Remember their banners - "No to Saddam, No to the US, Yes to Islam". They just want a genuinely representative government, not one that they perceive has been set up.... which, from their perspective, would then be genuinely oppressive.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Re: U.S. troops fix bayonets against Iraqi crowd - 10,000 Shia's march against occupation

            Originally posted by Nadia_H:


            None of this seems to be going well for the occupying forces. Alongwith Kurds, it's the Shi'ites who traditionally suffered the most under Hussein's regime - and yet here we have 10,000 Shi'ites marching against the British and American occupying forces. The US and UK wanted democracy in Iraq - here's proof of that "democracy": popular protests and taking to the streets.

            Funny thing is, when the same type of protests occur in Iran, that is perceived of as democracy in action; when we have protests against the US in Iraq, everyone seems to ignore them.

            What further messages do the people of this beleaguered country have to send to the occupying forces that they are not welcome anymore? For heaven's sake get the message and leave before more innocent bodybags are brought back to the US.
            Popular protests and taking to the streets is a very positive sign of freedom and democracy that has long been denied the Iraqi people. But Nadia, the 10,000 Shi'ites were, according to the story, protesting "rumors of U.S. harassment of a radical cleric." I'm not quite certain how you end up generalizing that to a broader message that "they are not welcome anymore." Certainly, some number of Iraqis must not welcome the presence of US troops anymore. But, as has been discussed in other threads, it is too early to come to any conclusions that this sentiment is representative of any significant majority of Iraqis. The "window of opportunity" is surely closing but it is not yet closed.

            And in all sincerity, thank you for expressing sympathy for what you have characterized as "innocent bodybags" being brought home to the US. Whether we support or oppose the current US policy in Iraq, I can assure you that all Americans grieve every time one of our young men or women come home in a bodybag. Those of us who support the action do not underestimate the sacrifice that is being made to help stabilize and rebuild Iraq for what we believe will be a better life for Iraqis. Those of us with family in uniform know this sacrifice more than most.
            "I met the surgeon general - he offered me a cigarette. " --Rodney Dangerfield

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Re: Re: U.S. troops fix bayonets against Iraqi crowd - 10,000 Shia's march against occupation

              Originally posted by myvoice:
              Those of us who support the action do not underestimate the sacrifice that is being made to help stabilize and rebuild Iraq for what we believe will be a better life for Iraqis. Those of us with family in uniform know this sacrifice more than most.



              Sorry, MV, i certainly didn't mean to state anything offensive... or even imply it.

              Anyways, i guess time will tell. You sound so sincere regarding wanting " a better life for Iraqis". i wish i could share in that optimism and faith.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Nadia_H:
                Thanks, Spoon :~) It's hard to get flowers in this Forum!

                [/b]

                No, not necessarily IMHO. Many individuals protesting in Iraq are protesting not for an oppressive government... just a government that they can call their own. Remember their banners - "No to Saddam, No to the US, Yes to Islam". They just want a genuinely representative government, not one that they perceive has been set up.... which, from their perspective, would then be genuinely oppressive.
                I am sure there are a lot of protesters who genuinely want a democratic government. But I think those who are whipped into a frenzy by "radical clerics" like in the posted article are looking for an Irani-like government ruled by ayatollahs. That is NOT a democratic government, whether it is voted in by a majority or not. Of course in a democratic government they should have a voice. But the people of Iraq shouldn't be oprressed by clerics, Americans or American stooges.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Some more flowers for Nadia, just cuz I like ya

                  But anyway, I have to stick with her on this.. the Iraqi protests, whether demanding allied withdraw or any kind of govt, should not be so easily dismissed. Afterall, it is a form of mass expression. But at the same time I don't think we can read too much into them at this disorganised stage. On the parallel with Iran, I think way too much credit is given to their protests. With Iraq, each is indicative of growing trends, and the diverse reasons behind them shows the chaotic nature of current Iraqi politics. In Iran the protests, so far, have only been an example of the fringe groups we have known about for years, their protests are stagnant and not necessarily an example of "yearning for democracy".

                  Something to remember: Democracy is not the only form of government that offers freedom.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Re: Re: Re: U.S. troops fix bayonets against Iraqi crowd - 10,000 Shia's march against occupatio

                    Originally posted by Nadia_H:
                    [/b]


                    Sorry, MV, i certainly didn't mean to state anything offensive... or even imply it.

                    Anyways, i guess time will tell. You sound so sincere regarding wanting " a better life for Iraqis". i wish i could share in that optimism and faith.
                    I took nothing you said as being the least bit offensive. I was sincere when I thanked you for expressing what I took to be genuine sympathy for our dead servicemen. If you didn't intend for people to interpret your remarks in that way, then I will take back my thanks and be offended.

                    My own feeling is that those Americans who want us to cut and run from Iraq immediately care one heck of a lot less about the well-being of the Iraqi people than those of us who want for us to stay for awhile and help rebuild it. That may be a little difficult for you to accept but I can only ask that you consider it as a possibility. I am optimistic that we will be successful because I also have faith that GW has the fortitude to stick through the hard times and is committed to the task at hand no matter what the financial cost and no matter what the short-term sacrifice entails. My faith in this regard has less to do with viewing GW as a great and benevolent person and more to do with my perception that he has staked his presidency on it and so he has no option.
                    "I met the surgeon general - he offered me a cigarette. " --Rodney Dangerfield

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: U.S. troops fix bayonets against Iraqi crowd - 10,000 Shia's march against occup

                      Originally posted by myvoice:
                      My own feeling is that those Americans who want us to cut and run from Iraq immediately care one heck of a lot less about the well-being of the Iraqi people than those of us who want for us to stay for awhile and help rebuild it.
                      This I agree very much on. Most advocating an immediate withdraw don't consider the consequences. I don't much like US troops having to be there, but they are so now a resolution must come of it. Leaving at this point would be more dangerous than staying.

                      What needs to be argued now is that we do it right, rather than just sit there and let happy accident do the job until we tire.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Re: U.S. troops fix bayonets against Iraqi crowd - 10,000 Shia's march against occupation

                        Originally posted by Nadia_H:


                        None of this seems to be going well for the occupying forces. Alongwith Kurds, it's the Shi'ites who traditionally suffered the most under Hussein's regime - and yet here we have 10,000 Shi'ites marching against the British and American occupying forces. The US and UK wanted democracy in Iraq - here's proof of that "democracy": popular protests and taking to the streets.

                        Funny thing is, when the same type of protests occur in Iran, that is perceived of as democracy in action; when we have protests against the US in Iraq, everyone seems to ignore them.
                        Spot on.

                        Since the very beginning of the war it was the Shia-majority area's, especially in the south which led the fiercest resistance to the Anglo-American invaders. Remember the American's got so panicked at the hostility of the Shia's that they came out on record as saying that they could not have the form of government they were demonstrating for? Some democracy huh? Then remember this:-

                        US-backed militia terrorises Iraqi town / Shia leader murdered in Najaf

                        Whether backing murdering militia groups to terrosrise Shia area's or threatening Shia demonstrators with bayonets, the American's are not at all interested in giving any local Iraqi's the right to rule over Iraq, hence they had to ship in all exile stooge council.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Re: Re: U.S. troops fix bayonets against Iraqi crowd - 10,000 Shia's march against occupation

                          Originally posted by Malik73:

                          ... the American's are not at all interested in giving any local Iraqi's the right to rule over Iraq, hence they had to ship in all exile stooge council.
                          "all Exile stooge council"?????

                          In all fairness, that doesn’t seem to accurately describe the members of the governing council at all. The council includes 13 Shiites, five Kurds, five Sunnis, one Christian and one Turkoman. Three members are women. Here is who they are with short bios.

                          1. Samir Shakir Mahmoud (Sunni)
                          Mr Mahmoud belongs to the al-Sumaidy clan which believes its origins can be traced back to the Prophet Muhammed. He is described as both a writer and an entrepreneur.
                          2. Sondul Chapouk (Turkmen)
                          Ms Chapouk is one of just three women on the council. She is a trained engineer and teacher, as well as being a women's activist.
                          3. Ahmed Chalabi, Iraqi National Congress (Shia)
                          Mr Chalabi is the leading figure in the Pentagon-backed INC, which he founded in 1992. It is thought he is viewed with suspicion by some Iraqis due to his proximity to the US administration and to the fact that he has been absent from Iraq for the best part of 45 years.
                          4. Naseer al-Chaderchi, National Democratic Party (Sunni)
                          Leader of the NDP, Naseer al-Chaderchi is also a lawyer who lived in Iraq throughout Saddam's regime.
                          5. Adnan Pachachi, former foreign minister (Sunni)
                          Mr Pachachi served as a minister from 1965 to 1967 before Saddam Hussein's Baath Party came to power. He is a nationalist with a secular liberal outlook. He is thought to be particularly favoured by the US Department of State.
                          6. Mohammed Bahr al-Ulloum, cleric from Najaf (Shia)
                          A highly respected religious scholar viewed as a liberal. He fled Iraq in 1991 after several members of his family were killed by Saddam Hussein's regime.
                          7. Massoud Barzani, Kurdistan Democratic Party (Sunni Kurd)
                          Mr Barzani has led the KDP through decades of conflict with the Iraqi central government and with local rivals, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (see below). He commands tens of thousands of armed militia fighters, known as peshmerga, and controls a large area of north-western Iraq.
                          8. Jalal Talabani, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (Sunni Kurd)
                          The veteran Kurdish leader is a lawyer by training. He split from the KDP in 1975 to form the PUK, which controls the south-east of northern Iraq.
                          9. Abdel-Aziz al-Hakim, Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution (Shia)
                          Number two in the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (Sciri), the sheikh is the brother of the council's leader Ayatollah Mohammad Baqer al-Hakim, who wants an Islamic regime in Iraq. He has returned to Iraq after 20 years in exile.
                          10. Ahmed al-Barak, human rights activist (Shia)
                          Mr al-Barak is the head of the union of lawyers and human rights league in the central city of Babylon.
                          11. Ibrahim al-Jaafari, Daawa Islamic Party (Shia)
                          Mr al-Jaafari is the spokesman for Daawa, one the oldest of the Shia Islamist movements. The party was banned in 1980 and he fled the country.
                          12. Raja Habib al-Khuzaai, southern tribal leader (Shia)
                          Ms al-Khuazaai is in charge of a maternity hospital in southern Iraq. She studied and lived in Britain in the 1960s and 1970s, before retuning to Iraq in 1977. Little is known about her political allegiances.
                          13. Aquila al-Hashimi, foreign affairs expert (Shia)
                          Ms al-Hashimi is a former diplomat who worked in the foreign ministry under Saddam Hussein. She holds a doctorate in French literature.
                          14. Younadem Kana, Assyrian Democratic Movement (Assyrian Christian)
                          Mr Kana is an engineer who served as an official for transport in the first Kurdish regional assembly and then as a trade minister in the regional government established in Erbil.
                          15. Salaheddine Bahaaeddin, Kurdistan Islamic Union (Sunni Kurd)
                          Mr Bahaaeddin founded the union in 1991 and became its secretary general three years later. It is the third most powerful force in Kurdish-dominated northern Iraq.
                          16. Mahmoud Othman (Sunni Kurd)
                          Mr Othman held various posts in the Kurdistan Democratic Party in the 1960s before moving to London. There he founded the Kurdish Socialist Party.
                          17. Hamid Majid Mousa, Communist Party (Shia)
                          Mr Mousa has been the secretary of the Iraqi Communist Party since 1993. An economist by training, he lived for several years in northern Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War.
                          18. Ghazi Mashal Ajil al-Yawer, northern tribal figure (Sunni)
                          Mr al-Yawer is a civil engineer who spent 15 years based in Saudi Arabia. He is a close relative of Sheikh Mohsen Adil al-Yawar, head of the powerful Shamar tribe, which comprises both Sunnis and Shia.
                          19. Ezzedine Salim, Daawa Islamic Party (Shia)
                          Mr Salim is the head of the Daawa Islamic Party, and is based in Basra.
                          20. Mohsen Abdel Hamid, Iraqi Islamic Party (Sunni)
                          A prolific author on the Koran, Mr Hamid is the secretary general of the Iraqi Islamic Party - the Iraqi branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.
                          21. Iyad Allawi, Iraqi National Accord (Shia)
                          Mr Alawi set up the Iraqi National Accord in 1990. His group consists mainly of military and security defectors and for many years supported the idea that the US should try to foster a coup from within the Iraqi army. Its failure to engender this meant it became overshadowed by Mr Chalabi's INC.
                          22. Wael Abdul Latif, Basra governor (Shia)
                          Mr Latif has served as judge since the early 1980s and is currently deputy head of the Basra court. He was imprisoned for one year under the regime.
                          23. Mouwafak al-Rabii (Shia)
                          A British-educated doctor who lived for many years in London. He is also the author of a book on Iraqi Shia and a human rights activist.
                          24. Dara Noor Alzin, judge
                          A judge who was condemned to three years in jail under Saddam Hussein for ruling that one of his edicts on confiscating land was unconstitutional. He served eight months of his sentence before being released under general amnesty in October 2002.
                          25. Abdel-Karim Mahoud al-Mohammedawi, Hezbollah from Amara (Shia)
                          Mr al-Mohammedawi has spent much of his life leading a resistance movement against Saddam Hussein in the southern marshes. He spent six years in jail under the regime.

                          BBC, News, BBC News, news online, world, uk, international, foreign, british, online, service
                          "I met the surgeon general - he offered me a cigarette. " --Rodney Dangerfield

                          Comment


                            #14
                            The council has to weigh up the extent to which it co-operates with the CPA, and appears like Bush stooges, and the extent to which it acts as the leaders of a sovereign nation....

                            Jonathan Steele: Iraqi leaders have to weigh up the risks of working with the occupiers.


                            Extract from the article

                            Some Iraqis see them as America's puppets. But there was a telling moment at the first public appearance by the members of Iraq's US-appointed "governing council" on Sunday. When Ahmed Chalabi, head of the CIA-funded Iraqi National Congress, took it on himself to "express the gratitude of the Iraqi people" to George Bush and Tony Blair for "liberating Iraq", none of the other 24 members at their joint press conference clapped.

                            It was not that they were an unappreciative lot. They applauded a colleague who appealed to al-Jazeera and other Arab television stations not to be negative about events in Iraq. They had clapped when another said there was no chance of Saddam Hussein returning to power. But public thanks for Bush and Blair? No thanks.

                            Unlike Chalabi, a true puppet of America, the other council members realise they have a credibility problem. Many Iraqis are suspicious of US intentions, particularly when it comes to their oil. Others are merely angry that promises to bring security and normality are still so far from being achieved.

                            In either case potential Iraqi leaders have to be careful how far they identify themselves with the occupying authorities. It is the classic colonial dilemma for local leaders in a country run by foreigners. Today's Iraqis have to weigh up the same issue of collaboration that has faced many before them, in Africa, Asia and Latin America - and indeed faced an earlier generation of Iraqis when the British invaded after the Ottoman empire collapsed.

                            Will they become the scapegoats for American and British failings? Will the coalition now shift the blame for delays in getting electricity going by telling Iraqis to complain to their own ministers, whom the council will appoint? Is the council a device for starting the process of writing a constitution and holding elections, or just a fig-leaf for coalition inadequacy and a rubber stamp?

                            The US administrator, Paul Bremer, has pre-empted several key economic decisions, such as announcing the budget and awarding contracts to Bush administration cronies. Will the council be able to stop any more of this, or block his plans for privatisation?
                            Muslims are so good at dividing that they can divide the atom. If you see two Muslims, probably they belong to 3 parties.
                            Al-Ghazali

                            Comment


                              #15
                              My own feeling is that those Americans who want us to cut and run from Iraq immediately care one heck of a lot less about the well-being of the Iraqi people than those of us who want for us to stay for awhile and help rebuild it.
                              No, that is not difficult to accept; it makes sense to me at once and i agree. i don't doubt the intentions of most Americans who would prefer the rebuilding option.

                              What i am not certain i will agree with is 'cut and run from Iraq'; why not transfer power to an interim UN authority... have an international peacekeeping force (maybe 'neutrally' peopled with Bangladeshis, Canadians, Pakistanis, Swedes, Danes, etc.). See, what i fail to understand is - why continue with a policy that is perceived as transparently lacking in representation. Names like Ahmed Chalabi, a man wanted for embezzlement, do not inspire confidence. Individuals who never even stepped foot in Iraq for decades are now being propped up as potential governmental officials. Why pursue a policy in which, *whether rightly or wrongly* the US is made to appear as though it is yet again setting up a stooge government... transfer power to the UN, and return soveriegnty of the country to the people. Let the world see that your aim was, well and truly, simply to oust a horrendous regime and let the Iraqis determine their own fate. Was it Bush or Cheney who stated that, 'we are not here as occupiers'? Well, prove that. This is as good a time as any when so many innocent soldiers are losing their lives.

                              Spoon made an extremely interesting comment, i think - Democracy is not the only form of government that offers freedom. i agree with his differentation between Iranian and Iraqi demonstrations. It will be interesting to see whether these protests in Iraq continue in the ensuing months and whether these guerilla clashes grow more organized and serious in their outcomes.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X