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    An "Indian" perspective on 65 WAR

    A more truthful account, though still has indian propaganda in it.

    Salute to the brave men and women of the Pakistan Armed Forces.

    What did you do in the war, daddy? http://www.expressindia.com/ie/dail...23/shekhar5.htm

    What did you do in the war, daddy?
    Dangers of military myths

    The official history confirms another great failing of the 1965 war, the inability of the Indian Air Force to provide a decisive edge on the battlefield or even match up to the Pakistanis

    In a society where even the writing of ancient history is so politically contentious, it is difficult to expect a realistic appreciation of fairly recent wars. Culturally, we also confuse military science with soldierly heroism. We can spend all our time extolling our troops for the courage they showed in Kargil but avoid talking about what got them in such a near-impossible war in the first place. Even with our bigger wars, propaganda myths created in the course of the engagements are then perpetuated for decades. In the 22-day war in 1965, for example, as schoolchildren we were taught that the Pakistani pilots were so scared of the tiny Gnat that they fled the moment they spotted one. That it was because the then army chief, General J.N. Chowdhary, was such a world-famous hot-shot in tank warfare that the Pakistani armour came unstuck at Khem Karan and other graveyards of the Patton. That Lahore and Sialkot were almost sure to be in our bag if the war had gone on a few more days.

    That is why it is refreshing that India’s own official history of the country’s first full-fledged modern war has been written with a degree of detachment. It confirms several widely held beliefs in the strategic community and described in the many books on that war. In India, the official history has followed close after the release of In the Line of Duty: A Soldier Remembers, the autobiography of Lt Gen Harbakhsh Singh, one of our tallest generals ever, professionally and physically, at 6-ft-2. As the western army commander during the 1965 war (there was no northern command then), he also led the operations in Kashmir and therefore controlled the entire war.

    His revelations, read with his earlier War Despatches and now authenticated by the official history, are devastating. It is, for example, now confirmed that not only did Gen Chowdhury play a very small role in the entire campaign, he was so nervous as to be on the verge of losing half of Punjab to Pakistan, including the city of Amritsar. Harbakhsh describes, in clinical detail, how our own offensive in the Lahore sector had come unhinged. The general commanding the division on Ichchogil canal fled in panic, leaving his jeep, its wireless running and the briefcase containing sensitive documents that were then routinely read on Radio Pakistan during the war. Singh wanted to court martial him, Chowdhury let him get away with resignation.

    But a bigger disaster struck a bit to the south where the other division cracked up in assault, just as it encountered a bit of resistance. Several infantry battalions, short on battle inoculation, deserted and Singh gives a hair-raising account – and confirmation of a long-debated rumour – that Chowdhury panicked so badly he ordered him to withdraw to a new defensive line behind the Beas, thereby conceding half of Punjab to Pakistan. Singh describes the conversation with Chowdhury at Ambala where he refused to carry out the order, asking his chief to either put it down in writing or visit the front and take charge of the battle. Chowdhury waffled even on that panicky decision, Singh’s artillery and some rag-tag armour lured the Pattons into soggy ground on a moonlit night and the result was the greatest escape to victory in our post-Independence military history. What was to be a spectacular Pakistani breakthrough right up
    to Panipat became a great rout of its armour.

    The official history confirms not just this but also another great failing of that war, the inability of the Indian Air Force to not only provide a decisive edge on the battlefield but to even match up to the Pakistanis. It did not participate in any of the big battles. Many of its attacks were casual, half-hearted, even suicidal, as the decision of opening the campaign with four Vampires, one of history’s first jets, made of plywood, to block the Pakistani advance in Chhamb. All four were shot, and IAF opened the campaign with a 0-4 deficit. Then followed a bizarre story of no communication between the army and the air force. The army apparently thought it could sort out the Pakistanis by itself. The air force thought it was fighting a war exclusively with the PAF.

    There was evidently too little communication between the army, air force and the political leadership. The IAF, for example, was told to stay back in the hangars in the eastern sector even when the PAF launched withering attacks on Kalaikunda and Bagdogra. Even after the disastrous Chhamb engagement, the IAF was so casual as to leave a whole bunch of frontline aircraft exposed at Pathankot, within minutes of flying time from PAF bases, and the result was another disaster in a raid at dusk. The Pakistanis seemed to have such a free run they even shot down the Dakota carrying the then chief minister of Gujarat, Balwant Rai Mehta, deep inside our territory, at night.

    Many of us have read with great resentment and scepticism claims of writers like former PAF chief Air Marshall Asghar Khan (India-Pakistan War: The First Round) and British writer John Fricker who give Pakistan a TKO victory in the 1965 air war. Fricker, in particular, gave these claims international currency with his controversial article, ‘30 Seconds over Sargodha’, which described ‘‘how’’ a PAF pilot shot down four Indian Hunters in 30 seconds over the Sargodha airbase. These claims are highly inflated. But the fact remains that in 1965 the IAF failed to tilt the balance in any theatre of the war. Singh says the IAF was simply not prepared for war, physically or mentally. The IAF commanders from that period, including the then chief Arjan Singh, say the army never kept them in the loop. But the fact is that all of them, even the eastern and western command chiefs, were decorated after the war. There were no questions asked.

    There weren’t any asked elsewhere either. Every single army general even remotely connected with the war effort was decorated, including the Strike Corps commander in the Sialkot sector who did not cover five miles in 15 days. Chowdhury himself was cast as some kind of a swadeshi Rommel, though he never got within shouting distance of the war. And even the then naval chief was decorated though his fleet remained firmly in harbour, failing to stir out even after the Pakistanis cockily pounded Dwarka.

    The dangers in perpetuating mythologies built during a war into a kind of instant military history are obvious. It is impossible to first generously lionise and decorate people and to then hold them accountable for what they did wrong during a war. We obviously learnt some lessons from these in 1965 and the result was a decisive, premeditated campaign and victory in 1971. The key to that lightning campaign was total understanding between the army and the IAF. But if you look back on the way we once again rushed to hand out decorations post-Kargil and how closed we still are to the idea of finding out how on earth we let so many Pakistanis get so well entrenched on so much territory for so long, you wonder if the lessons of 1965 are so thoroughly forgotten that we are willing to make the same mistakes again.


    #2

    Today our valiant forces face the same challenge may Allah grant them victory.

    PAKISTAN PAINDABAD http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/soldier.gif

    Comment


      #3
      WEll atleast they are starting to understand how spineless and cowardly there army is......they can hit us behind our backs in Bangladesh but when its face to face...they all run....they keep the great tradition of coward hindu kings alive and well....

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by PJ:

        Today our valiant forces face the same challenge may Allah grant them victory.

        PAKISTAN PAINDABAD http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/soldier.gif
        http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

        Play Your Game - Guess My Motto

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Bhadsha:
          WEll atleast they are starting to understand how spineless and cowardly there army is......they can hit us behind our backs in Bangladesh but when its face to face...they all run....they keep the great tradition of coward hindu kings alive and well....
          This is such a racist comment. I can retaliate but what is the point.

          If you believe that Indian Army is made of cowards, you are free to do so.

          Our soldiers got back many peaks in Kargil against all odds facing an enemy that sneaked into the heights. Atleast we have the guts to admit that our own army took part.

          Unlike your buds who put shalwar kameez on their troops and call them Mujahideen and don't even claim the bodies.

          Can any true report of a Pak war be published in Pakistan?

          What happened to the Hamood report?

          Comment


            #6
            Talwar- you don't know what you're talking about. Pak fighters dispalyed amazing infiltration skills by getting into Kargil.

            You Indians didn't even know they were there
            till they started shooting you. Then a few hundred fighter gave thousands of Indians backed by artillery, and more, a damn tough time! indian soldiers were crying!

            Only when Sharif 'obeyed' to Clinton did they pull back, otherwise there would have been more coffins for your politicians to make money over!

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by RealDeal:
              Talwar- you don't know what you're talking about. Pak fighters dispalyed amazing infiltration skills by getting into Kargil.

              You Indians didn't even know they were there
              till they started shooting you. Then a few hundred fighter gave thousands of Indians backed by artillery, and more, a damn tough time! indian soldiers were crying!!
              I admit that the infiltration was a tactical victory for Pak.

              But, a "few hundred fighters" is a lie. A few thousand were involved.

              Read this interview of Nawaz Sharif in Pak paper "Weekly Independent" dated March 7 -13, 2002

              The Kargil issue is another inevitable topic when we discuss the Nawaz-Musharraf relations. "As a PM I wasn't taken into confidence on the Kargil issue. I was told that there wouldn't be any problem or loss of life in the conflict. The attack of only Mujahideen would be sufficient and the Army would not be part of the attack. But when the battle began, the whole Northern Light Infantry was blown up and 2,700 soldiers were martyred and hundreds were injured. The death toll exceeds even that of the 1965 and 1971 full-scale wars. To my question, Gen Pervez said that India was bombing extensively. He said: 'Sahib! We didn't know India would launch so severe attack". When the Washington accord was being signed, the Indians had got half of the posts evacuated and was advancing, Nawaz said.
              Also, this report in the Friday Times dated March 29 - April 04, 2002 says:

              Reports suggest that during the last week of the operation Pakistan had to pull out men deployed at Siachin, leaving positions there vulnerable to an Indian attack. Hence, it was in the Army’s interest to convince the prime minister to negotiate peace with the adversary.
              "Nawaz" betrayed us is a conveninet piece of fiction propogated by Musharraf. Fact is that if NS hadn't negotiated, India was ready to attack Haji Pir and other areas.

              Comment


                #8
                ok, if it was a few thousand, then it is even better infiltration skills!

                And you base everything on Nawaz Sharif doing a 'Shaggy' -It wasn't me!

                For NS to say 'nothing was my fault' is a load of crap! Hardly the most honest figure, a big liar!

                2,700 my foot! You think such a big figure, with all the funerals it would cause could be covered up?!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by RealDeal:
                  2,700 my foot! You think such a big figure, with all the funerals it would cause could be covered up?!
                  All the dead were from the Northern Areas. NLI and Gilgit Scouts. If your govt can cover up soldier involvement, then surely it can cover up some funerals in villages.

                  If the death toll is less than 2,700, then swhy not publish it? What is your govt afraid of?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I hate to do these India vs. Pakistan comparisons, but since three wars are a reality I must do so.

                    Considering the fact that Pakistan's military is numerically smaller, its airforce outmatched and its navy close to non-effective, lets see what Pakistan has done..

                    1948- Kashmir. True enough the Valley was lost, but if Pakistan lost, what explains Azad Kashmir & Northern Areas?

                    1965- Again botched Kashmir uprising. Lahore and the plains of Punjab ready to be overrun by the unmatched Indian military prowess. Result: The military held on to the territorial integrity of Pakistan. Not to forget the Rann of Kutch/Sir Creek skirmishes, which ended with international involvement (We all know why India has soured on Intenational involvement in Kashmir).

                    1971- Bangladesh war. Major losses for Pakistan. Let's analyze this fact first: the population of E.Pakistan had already turned against the Pakistanis. I want ANY Indian (or whomever) tell me their plan to hold on to the part of the country that is surrounded in 3 sides with a hostile neighbor, the local population in open rebellion, and a seige mentality in the military created through the lack of support from the Government. If you Indians want to claim this a victory then it is yours for the taking. West Pakistan still held intact.

                    Kargil: Now I don't consider Kargil a war because it was a localized conflict with much of the Pakistani military not involved. NLI and Gilgit Scouts are paramilitary units. Although I'm sure many Indians would love to call it a vijay, however don't forget that it was our traitor PM who was responsible for the pull back. Although I don't even know what the purpose of Kargil was? If you cut off Laddakh and put pressure on Sri Nagar, you better believe that Indians will respond in the Poonch-Muzzaferabad and Jammu-Sialkot axes. You cannot win Kashmir by military action, it is a foolish assumption to believe that if Pakistan engages in a limited war in Kashmir, the international border will not be crossed by India. Learn from the mistakes of 1965, is getting Kashmir worth losing Lahore Sialkot, Kasur, and Sindh combined?

                    ------------------
                    The eyelids of a Rajputs eyes are lowered only in death.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      is anybody forcing pakistan not to repeat
                      another kargil.did they sign any agreement
                      not to cross loc?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Its fun seeing Talwar Sahib scramble around trying to find some dignity after reading that article... http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
                        Dude, admit Pakistan Air Force Kicked your ass in 1965. And regardless of what you say, we screwed you pretty well in Kargil aswell..
                        I know you guys in India have a strong army,
                        and many of those soldiers are really brave. I mean, I have to admit those guys in Kargil fought really bravely, walking right into what was sure to be suicide.
                        But ethics and propaganda aside, speaking in a purely military sense, Kargil was a victory for Pakistan. Regardless of what we gained from it, you guys would not have been able to regain that peak without Clinton stepping into the fraw...

                        Comment


                          #13
                          RealDeal

                          Pak fighters dispalyed amazing infiltration skills by getting into Kargil.

                          Yeah, sure. Infiltrated at a time when traditionally both sides leave the heights only to come back in summers. And when Indians came back they found amzing infiltrations done by Pak forces (oops was it mujahideens).

                          You Indians didn't even know they were there till they started shooting you.

                          Yeah, of course. They shot an Indian team that went there to check and inspect the heights. What else were you expecting we should have known before checking.

                          Then a few hundred fighter gave thousands of Indians backed by artillery, and more, a damn tough time! indian soldiers were crying!

                          You put even a coward with a gun on top of a hill (well entrenched and hidden), give me a hypothetical figure how many police personnels (or army in this case) would it take to reach there and get him down.

                          Only when Sharif 'obeyed' to Clinton did they pull back, otherwise there would have been more coffins for your politicians to make money over!

                          I agree with you that there would have been more coffins but that still does not prove bravery of Pak soldiers.

                          RajputFury

                          1948- Kashmir. True enough the Valley was lost, but if Pakistan lost, what explains Azad Kashmir & Northern Areas?

                          It was Kashmir when Pakistan took over NA and POK and not from India. India only started repulsing this attack after Kashmir acceded to India. So brave Pakistani soldiers (Oops it was only tribals) were actually taking over its own so-called muslim brethrens by force and looting and only stopped after India got involved. History repeated again in Bangladesh, but thankfully this time Pakistan was brave enough to admit it was not people in salwar-kameez but soldiers because they got registered in the Guiness Book of World Records.

                          1965- Again botched Kashmir uprising. Lahore and the plains of Punjab ready to be overrun by the unmatched Indian military prowess. Result: The military held on to the territorial integrity of Pakistan. Not to forget the Rann of Kutch/Sir Creek skirmishes, which ended with international involvement (We all know why India has soured on Intenational involvement in Kashmir).

                          Pakistan always attack first and India was only trying to divide your forces from Kashmir.

                          1971- Bangladesh war. Major losses for Pakistan.

                          Real truth, it hurts, aint it.

                          Let's analyze this fact first: the population of E.Pakistan had already turned against the Pakistanis.

                          Pakistan say the same for Kashmir

                          I want ANY Indian (or whomever) tell me their plan to hold on to the part of the country that is surrounded in 3 sides with a hostile neighbor, the local population in open rebellion,

                          Pakistan claim the same for Kashmir, which is sandwitched between Pakistan and China (close allies, as most of you claim).

                          Kargil: Now I don't consider Kargil a war because it was a localized conflict with much of the Pakistani military not involved. NLI and Gilgit Scouts are paramilitary units.

                          Why was Pak military was not involved when it was an all out their plan. Must be brave soldiers.

                          Although I'm sure many Indians would love to call it a vijay, however don't forget that it was our traitor PM who was responsible for the pull back.

                          In Pakistan Army rules and ruled. Musharraf, had he wanted, could have overthrown Nawaz then and there, had he been confident. But, he agreed to what Nawaz said. Why do Pakistani take pleasure in blaming Nawaz for everything. Kargil was military’s baby.

                          Although I don't even know what the purpose of Kargil was? If you cut off Laddakh and put pressure on Sri Nagar, you better believe that Indians will respond in the Poonch-Muzzaferabad and Jammu-Sialkot axes. You cannot win Kashmir by military action, it is a foolish assumption to believe that if Pakistan engages in a limited war in Kashmir, the international border will not be crossed by India. Learn from the mistakes of 1965, is getting Kashmir worth losing Lahore Sialkot, Kasur, and Sindh combined?

                          I agree with you. Dot on the spot. It is really not worth fighting over a political/territorial dispute now-a-days, cos nobody wins. It has to be sorted out in some other way and infiltration in disguise is surely not one of them.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:
                            Its fun seeing Talwar Sahib scramble around trying to find some dignity after reading that article... http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
                            Dude, admit Pakistan Air Force Kicked your ass in 1965. And regardless of what you say, we screwed you pretty well in Kargil aswell..
                            I know you guys in India have a strong army,
                            and many of those soldiers are really brave. I mean, I have to admit those guys in Kargil fought really bravely, walking right into what was sure to be suicide.
                            But ethics and propaganda aside, speaking in a purely military sense, Kargil was a victory for Pakistan. Regardless of what we gained from it, you guys would not have been able to regain that peak without Clinton stepping into the fraw...

                            adnan if india could not push back kargil
                            invader due to difficult terrain india would have been forced to attack pakistan where it is weak spread he war to other fronts.
                            musharuff could have prevented nawaz from visiting washington on the day of united states's independnt day .

                            Comment


                              #15
                              The problem with you Indians is that you have become really really arrogant. Facts speak for themselves. You people think your gods since you can afford to buy more weapons and have a larger army. But the truth is that those guns are only as good as the soldiers that use them, and your army is only as good as the people leading it. Kargil showed that you people had serious problems with leadership. Why else would so many of your soldiers be sent in to commit suicide? Your press admits this themselves, that many of the men lost their lives for nothing. As for your soldiers, the only time you could defeat us was in Bangledesh. That wasn't even a victory for you guys because Pakistan actually had two enemies and three fronts. All the rest of the Wars you guys couldn't gain an inch despite you numerical superiority. My point is this, you guys need to stop running around in circles, stop wining like children, stop being arrogant, admit we screwed you and screwed you good. Oh and as far as attacking Pakistan is concerned, I bet we would still kick your ass bloody... http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

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