Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

India suffered a humiliating defeat in 1965 at the hand of Pak troops: VP Malik

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    India suffered a humiliating defeat in 1965 at the hand of Pak troops: VP Malik

    India suffered a humiliating defeat in 1965 at the hand of Pak troops: VP Malik

    NEW DELHI, Feb 14 (Online): Former chief of Indian army Prakash Malik has admitted that in 1965 India had to face a humiliating defeat at the hands of efficient Pak troops and air force. In a column appearing in a daily published from Jalandhar Prakash Malik said that Pak troops inflicted heavy losses on Indian troops during the 1965 war due to which India had to suffer a humiliating defeat. Lauding the role of Pakistan air force in the 1965 war he said that the manner in which Pak air force combated and gained successes is truly laudable. He further wrote that due to the failure of Indian air force the ground troops could not achieve any successes. He said all this was achieved due to the comprehensive and excellent strategy employed by the Pakistan Army. VP Malik criticising the Indian army policies employed in Siachen and Kargil said due to the incompetent policies of the Indian Army we had to suffer heavy losses.


    lets see what rani and some of her other friends have to say about this..


    bye
    Naeem


    #2
    Their reply --> Former chief of Indian army Prakash Malik was/is an ISI agent.

    Comment


      #3
      so what if our asses get kicked we find
      out the reason and change our tactics
      well we can afford to be incompetant
      since india is big and has more staying power
      we can recover from defeats .
      we not only want to win the battle field
      but other areas also like economics and technology.

      Comment


        #4
        I know this is Malik's line but -- "what's the source ?" http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by rvikz:
          so what if our asses get kicked we find
          out the reason and change our tactics
          well we can afford to be incompetant
          since india is big and has more staying power
          we can recover from defeats .
          we not only want to win the battle field
          but other areas also like economics and technology.

          YIP!! we have seen some very good results of the recovery. For example Kargel..you guys sure showed pakistan army that your army can fight. You guys cann't fight Kashmiree freedom fighters what heck you gonna do with Pakistan army....

          one more thing what was the reason for getting your asses kicked...I could think of few..but again that will open up a whole can of worms....


          -Naeem

          Comment


            #6
            when did india win against west Pakistan..
            Yo, NEVER.. they lost in 1948 (remember,
            we took half kashmir back). 1965 is no
            secret. Kargil is a big shame for indian
            army.. out of four wars india fought (3 with
            Pak, and 1 with china).. india was able to
            win only one when bangalis were attacking
            our army. After fighting/losing 3 wars,
            indian still are in deception that they are
            a great power..
            this is when you say to
            someone.. doob maro cholu bhar pani mey
            There are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the end the sword will always be conquered by the spirit. --Napoleon Bonaparte

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by naeem_dimple:
              India suffered a humiliating defeat in 1965 at the hand of Pak troops: VP Malik

              NEW DELHI, Feb 14 (Online):

              line specifically for you or what. i do not see it even in paki newspapers.

              it is a fake news item

              [This message has been edited by ZZ (edited February 14, 2001).]

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by ZZ:
                Originally posted by naeem_dimple:
                India suffered a humiliating defeat in 1965 at the hand of Pak troops: VP Malik

                NEW DELHI, Feb 14 (Online):

                line specifically for you or what. i do not see it even in paki newspapers.

                it is a fake news item

                [This message has been edited by ZZ (edited February 14, 2001).]

                here you go...www.millat.com


                Comment


                  #9
                  www.millat.com

                  What a credible link! I need more than that!! It should be available at:
                  www.Taleban.com http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

                  [This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited February 14, 2001).]

                  Comment


                    #10
                    pakistan eventually will loose not because the army cant fight because india is bigger nad has more resources. technologically nnot a big difference in those days . but in the future who has the techology will win.


                    no one produced single evidence of proof
                    pakistanis won the war in any confrontation.
                    they may have won battles in small areas
                    but the final outcome is something different

                    Comment


                      #11
                      On the 3rd of December 1971, the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) struck a
                      number of Indian airfields in northern India. By midnight, India was
                      officially at war with Pakistan. Two weeks later, the war was over. The
                      Indian Army had overrun erstwhile East Pakistan (Bangladesh) and
                      taken 93,000 POWs. It was one of the swiftest military campaigns in
                      recent history...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by rvikz:
                        pakistan eventually will loose not because the army cant fight because india is bigger nad has more resources. technologically nnot a big difference in those days . but in the future who has the techology will win.


                        no one produced single evidence of proof
                        pakistanis won the war in any confrontation.
                        they may have won battles in small areas
                        but the final outcome is something different

                        So, india has better technology.. May I have an example please..

                        Does india make better missiles then Pakistan...neah !
                        Does india make a Main battle tank .. neah..
                        Does india make a GOOD aircraft.. neah...
                        CAN INDIA MAKE THESE EVER --- NO !
                        or at least not before Pakistan..
                        We've already seen and laugh at LCA and Arjun.
                        Pakistan has definitly won two out of three
                        wars against indo..
                        1948 and 1965..
                        How did india lost half of kashmir and
                        siachin ?

                        The only country that has shoot down
                        several Airforce jets of a military superPower when
                        not in war is Pakistan. when then Soviet Unions
                        aircraft used to enter illegally into pakistans airspace
                        from Afghanistan. If we did not care about a super power..
                        Would we care about a country such as india... I don't
                        think we are worried about indian army that much
                        because Pakistan is not weaker or less technologically
                        developed then india.
                        Also, the thing that is count most in a war
                        is not just technology, it is the courage
                        that is why 700,000 armed personal of Bharti
                        Sena is not able to stop kashmiris from
                        their fight for freedom.

                        [This message has been edited by PureLand (edited February 15, 2001).]
                        There are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the end the sword will always be conquered by the spirit. --Napoleon Bonaparte

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by PureLand:

                          Does india make better missiles then Pakistan...neah !
                          Does india make a Main battle tank .. neah..
                          Does india make a GOOD aircraft.. neah...
                          CAN INDIA MAKE THESE EVER --- NO !
                          or at least not before Pakistan..
                          We've already seen and laugh at LCA and Arjun.
                          Of course India has had problems with its Tanks, its fighter aircrafts, its satellite launch vehicles, everything. But please don't compare it with Pakistani missile technology or space research or aviation and make a clown out of yourself.

                          May I humbly state the fact that General Pervez Musharaf said "We don't want to reply for India's recent missile test because, we don't want to waste our inventory"

                          "Inventory" - is the key word here and it says a lot about how missiles were developed, produced(acquired?) in Pakistan. Now, I don't say Pakistan has inferior technology in everything. I look up to you for at least rolling out Al Khalid, however superior or inferior it might be. It is something, we Indians could learn.

                          But at the same time, consider this.

                          Space research always complements missile development. Has Pakistan ever launched a satellite? (even unsuccessfully?)

                          If you have ever involved yourself in engineering, even as simple as making a broken toy work at home, you will know, that things won't work the first time. You make mistakes and learn, you acquire skill, competency and then you slowly succeed. This is true for every research ever made in the world. Wright brothers spent 15 designs to get their first model fly. USA and USSR lost many many sattelites, men and material, before they perfected their space launches.

                          Does Pakistan have any such history? Do they have a space launch vehicle that can match SLV (1980's technology) of India? Do they have even one indigenous weather sattelite? Without even demonstrating success at these stepping stones, you claim Pakistan has climbed the mountain.

                          It is true, that Pakistan should be proud for having such advanced missiles (not many have it, nor can be successful even if they try), but claiming to have made these missiles, is child like.

                          Does india make a GOOD aircraft.. neah...
                          CAN INDIA MAKE THESE EVER --- NO !
                          or at least not before Pakistan..
                          Yes, LCA has had problems. And it will still have problems. An LCA could crash some where in India (hopefully not killing the pilot) some time in the future. Yes, some of the components are foreign and the research for replacing them with indigenous ones are taking longer than expected. But, these constitute the process of development and perfection.

                          After all these failures and debacles, when the first supersonic aircraft of south asia, took to flight, it was the proudest moment for every Indian, for having designed it in indigenously. It is feeling that you can never get by buying it off the shelf or making such empty claims.

                          Does Pakistan even have an active research project for making a super-sonic fighter? But I will not be surprised, if they would say in 6 months that their new project of supersonic fighter is successful and it took them only 6 months unlike India, and the resemblance of that aircraft with a chinese fighter is just a coincidence.

                          Pureland, when you have worked for three years, and worked without sleep for 56 hours before the event and your robot successfully makes a turn to avoid a moving obstacle, inside a nuclear research center in India, and when top scientists of India are watching it, you cry in pride. That is a feeling you never know, if you buy the robot through a vendor. And proudly claiming to have made it after that, will only make you or your nation a clown before me.


                          [This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited February 15, 2001).]

                          Comment


                            #14
                            very good kumarkn.http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

                            Comment


                              #15


                              After the war both India and Pakistan claimed ‘victory’. It is open to interpretation what is meant by the word ‘victory’, and it
                              may be true to some extent that they were both ‘victors’ because both have in their occupation land which did not belong to
                              them. The only loser in this war game were the Kashmiri people who were the main suffering party; and who despite huge
                              sacrifices were still divided and oppressed.

                              Mrs Indira Gandhi was once asked by a foreign journalist that Pakistan claims to have won the 1965 war, and India makes a
                              similar claim; what was her opinion on this. With a smile she said we did not send any one to liberate the area which is under
                              illegal occupation of Pakistan. It was Pakistan which sent the "intruders" in order to get Kashmir from India. Our purpose, at
                              that time, was not to get any more area which is occupied by Pakistan, we simply wanted to drive out the "saboteurs" out of
                              Kashmir. Kashmir is still with us and the "intruders" were successfully pushed out of Kashmir. I want you to be judge and
                              decide who is the ‘victor’.


                              3. Operation Gibraltar rejected by the Army Chief

                              Brigadier (R) Farooq who was an officer in the force which was sent to 'liberate Kashmir' claims in his book, 'Operation
                              Gibraltar', that Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, the then Foreign Minister of Pakistan was one of the brains behind this. 5 According to him,
                              Bhutto set up a ' Liberation Cell ', which included people like:

                              Mr Aziz Ahmed
                              Mr Nazir Ahmed
                              Mr Ayub Buksh Awan
                              Mr NA Farooqi
                              Mr Ahmed
                              Mr Altaf Goher
                              (although the later did not attend any of the meetings)

                              General Musa, Commander in Chief of the Pakistan Army at that time, confirms the existence of this 'Cell', which was set up in
                              August of 1964. 6 The majority of the members of this 'Cell' were from the 'Qadiani sect'. This 'Cell' had the support of some
                              senior army officers, including Major General Akhtar Malik, who was also known to be a 'Qadiani'.

                              When this ambitious plan was first sent to the GHQ, General Musa opposed it and wrote the following points to the President
                              Ayub Khan:

                              A. Guerrilla war in Kashmir can only be successful if the people of Kashmir take part in it, and in my opinion we need more
                              time to prepare people for this.

                              B. During the guerrilla war if India realized that it is losing the war in Kashmir, she will attack Pakistan.

                              C. As long as Pakistan is not in a position to defeat India militarily, we should not venture such operation in Kashmir.

                              D. In order to defeat India we need more army, better arms and better training.

                              (General Musa asked for money to set up two more army divisions to face the challenge. General Ayub in principle agreed with
                              this idea, but the Finance Minister Mr Shoaib persuaded him against this by saying that the Pakistan economy cannot afford it.
                              And this idea was dropped. It is ironic that no such army was raised before the start of the ‘Operation Gibraltar’ or during its
                              operations, but after the war, in the same month, two divisions were set up).

                              It is amazing to note that Air Marshal Asghar Khan, who retired from his position on 23 July 1965 was not consulted on this
                              important issue. It was quite obvious that with an ‘ Operation ‘ of that nature there would be some serious response from India,
                              which could lead to a full scale war, and for that the assistance of the air force was must. The planners, for what ever reason,
                              assumed that like 1947 India would limit the war to the State of Jammu and Kashmir. Pakistan had pay heavily for this wrong,
                              rather foolish assumption.

                              Despite this opposition from the senior army men, including the Commander in Chief, the go ahead was given to this
                              'Operation'. In Brigadier (R) Farooq's view, Mr Bhutto played the leading role in persuading Ayub Khan. According to him,
                              Bhutto must have said to Ayub Khan that:

                              1. You missed an opportunity of liberating Kashmir in 1963, while India was engaged in a war with China.

                              2. You are just as great and important as Mao- se -Tang of China, General Charles De Gaul of France, and Marshall Tito of
                              Yugoslavia. You have made Pakistan a strong and viable country. Pakistan needs you, and his (Bhutto’s) wish is that Ayub
                              Khan remains president for life. This can only be done if some how Kashmir is liberated and joined with Pakistan. If this can
                              happen then it will establish him in the history as a great leader and conqueror, and there will be no parallel to his greatness.

                              3. Furthermore Bhutto is what he (Ayub Khan) has made him, and it is his desire to serve him as the Foreign Secretary to pay
                              his due.

                              Another writer, Arshad Ahmed, in an article on the 1965 war said:
                              Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto wanted to deprive Ayub Khan of his power, and this was not possible until the strength, ego and pride of the
                              army was not smashed. This view was supported by Marxist leader Tariq Ali, who was close to the Peoples Party which
                              Bhutto formed after disagreements with the Ayub Khan Government, said in an interview in America that, he had asked Bhutto
                              about the 1965 war, and Bhutto told him: Until these generals are not defeated it is not possible to get in power in Pakistan. 9
                              According to the writer this view is also supported by prominent people like Major General Rao Farman Ali, Lt. General Atiq
                              Ul Reman, Major General Ahesan Ul Haq, Col. Ghafar and Altaf Goher.

                              Brigadier Arshad who was the Director Military Intelligence also opposed this 'Operation', but later agreed to go along with the
                              tide, perhaps he had realized the trend and did not want to oppose this and jeopardies his promotion prospects. He later retired
                              as a Lt. General. According to Brigadier (R) Farooq General Musa was a simple man. He gave his opinion about the
                              'Operation' and then did not make it a matter of pride and remained quiet. if he and General Sher Bahdar who also opposed the
                              idea, had resigned then there would have been no 'Operation Gibraltar'

                              A top level meeting was held at the Headquarters of the 12 th Division in May 1965. Once again, General Musa opposed the
                              plan, and to this President Ayub Khan: 'Musa I have been assured by the Foreign Office that India would not be involved in a
                              full scale war'. When both General Musa and General Sher Bahadar said that if we are to start a guerrilla war at that level, it is
                              very likely that India would react and attack Pakistan. President Ayub Khan reacted by saying: 'We will have to take heart
                              sometime'

                              Apart from the assurance to which President Ayub Khan made reference that India would not attack Pakistan, Pakistani
                              planners of this ‘Operation’ were led to believe that India is not in a position to launch attack against Pakistan until 1966 or
                              1967. It was emphasized that we do not waste any more time, and start our action as soon as possible.

                              During this time the plan was discussed with Col. Syed Ghafar Mehdi, the Commander of the Special Services Group, whose
                              officers were also to take part in this Operation. After reading it he said:

                              'The whole concept of this Operation is wrong, and the planning is wrong too. The planners have not used their common sense
                              and intelligence. This is a product of a bankrupt mind, and it is possible that this may prove to be "Bay of Pigs" for Pakistan.' 14

                              4. Objectives of the Operation

                              We have looked at the planners and the leaders of the ‘Operation’, now let us examine at its objectives. According to Brigadier
                              (R) Farooq it was assumed that as the result of this guerrilla war the Kashmir problem would be settled within weeks; if this did
                              not happen, at least, it would force the United Nations to intervene and have a cease fire.

                              India had started calling Kashmir as its 'integral part', this was contrary to the UN resolutions and India's pledges regarding
                              Kashmir. The aim of the ‘Operation’ was:

                              * To expose the Indian claim on Kashmir by the guerrilla war - present it as the Kashmiri peoples

                              [This message has been edited by rvikz (edited February 15, 2001).]

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X