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Ancient....and I mean ancient Indian civilisation

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    Ancient....and I mean ancient Indian civilisation

    Let put this into context, the ancient Egyptian civilisation goes back to around 3-4000 BC, the Mesopatamian/Bablylonian slightly before this time. But this new find in the Gulf of Cambay offshore East India.....get this, potentially dates from around 7-8000 BC.

    Although this still remains to be varified by further carbon 14 isotope work...

    Mod's......this sort of topic still doesn't sit well in C&A. The description in the main page for this forum is still a little confused......I've almost run out of wind...but hey here goes......what happened to the suggestion of a Sci&Tech forum.

    If this is true it gives the evolutionists something to worry about, as it pokes a couple of holes into their theories. Yes it is off topic, but relevant nonetheless. Also it could be that human life did not originate from Africa, but rather Asia Minor. If that is not true, then the question would be why did the human species develop such inventions in the Sub-continent and not in Africa.


      Well to be honest it only affects the theory of the evolution of civilisations.

      Early man was around 2 million years ago...around about 500 000-300 000 years ago for early neanderthals. These early homonids had basic dwellings....but there is evidence for a mass exodus 'out of Africa' over the years as numbers grew, to greener pastures.

      The line of movement seems to be from East Africa to the Fertile Cresent in present day Iraq and then onto India/Indonesia/China/across the frozen Bering Straits onto north America and at the same time south to Australasia.

      Man built simple dwellings everywhere he went...but what is intriguing is that the environment in some places was conducive to large population gatherings, i.e. Mesopatamia, Indus valley and now apparently Cambay.


        The oldest known fossil remains of Homonids are still indisputably East African in origin.


          You guys had it goin' on pretty early, would-
          n't you say? 5x2 miles in size and maybe
          9500 years ago. I am a self confessed nutter
          that thinks civilizations in the south asia
          area might reveal very interesting evidence
          in future. The past can be as exciting as the



            Well the past in reputed to be the key to the present.

            Yes I wait with baited breath. However, the conditions under which research is being carried out are treacherous and any work will be slow and painstaking. Such is the life of an archaeologist.


              Okay mods I'm gonna give it go. Please move this and the thread on Neanderthals to the C&A forum please.


                there were excavations near Quetta in the last 12 years or so.. where they found traces of settlements dating back to at least 7000 BC.. did not hear too much about it apart from the archeologist complaining lack of govt funding.. as well as support by the govt in getting foreign funding.

                here are a few links on Balochistan which would be interesting to archaeology buffs.


                (It will be interesting to examine Tilak's theory in the light of recent archaeological research. Hundred years have passed since Tilak expounded his views. In his time the Indus civilization had not been discovered; but now we know it in all its glory. It must be stated that there are quite a few who identify it as the civilization of the Vedic Aryans10 although the general opinion seems to assign it to a post-Harappan date in the later half of the second millennium B.C. It may not be out of place to mention here that the recent archaeological data have not yielded any evidence for the Aryan invasion.11 Moreover, the beginning of the settled life in the Indian subcontinent now goes back to almost ten thousand years as is clear from the excavation at Mehragh which is located at the mouth of the Bolan Pass near Quetta in Pakistan.12 The excavated evidence points to continuous habitation starting from 7500 B.C. and ending around 3000 B.C. which marks the Early Harappan phase out of which evolved the Indus or the Harappan civilization. The only noticeable culture change in all the four and a half millennia of continuous habitation is between 6000 B.C. to 4500 B. C. which indicates the arrival of a new group of people or new cultural influences. These are precisely the dates that Tilak has assigned to his Pre-Orion period. This may be sheer coincidence and it will not be prudent to read too much into it at this stage, but at the same time it cannot be dismissed out of hand.)


                (review of a book on archaeological history of india) excerpt from the page

                The next chapter traces the growth of villages from Baluchistan to Haryana and Gujarat. The results of the excavations done in places like Mehgarh and Kile Gul Mohamud and Damsadar in Quetta Valley, sites in Kulley Valley and Baluchistan, the Indus-Hakra plain, the Hakra sites in Cholistan, Kot Digi culture in Sind; the Kot Digi phase at Harappa and Kalibangan (in Rajasthan), pre- Indus phase of Dholavira (in the Rann of Kutch) are analysed in detail. From these we know about the growth of distinctly agricultural communities in the vast stretch of land between Baluchistan and Bannu on the one hand and the area near Delhi and Gujarat on the other. This marks a long span of about 4000 years from 7000 to 3000 B.C. It is in this course of development that the roots of the subsequent Indus civilisation are to be found.


                (The origins of village life in South Asia were first documented at Kile Ghul Mohammad in the Quetta Valley (Fairservis 1956) and then at the site of Mehergarh at the base of the Bolan Pass on the Kachi Plain of the Indus valley connecting the Quetta Valley to the lowlands (Jarrige 1984). Both these sites demonstrated cultural development from the seventh millennium B.C. to the emergence of the Mature Harappan phase in the middle of third millennium B.C. The Peninsular India, particularly the Deccan and Central India witnessed the origins of village life quite late e.g. in the middle of third millennium B.C. Until the discovery of the Chalcolithic Cultural Phase A at Balathal a couple of years ago, it was hypothesised, on the basis of available evidence, that the influence and technology of agriculture began to spread to the Deccan and Central India from the Harappans in the western and northwestern part of India (Shinde 1990). The recent excavation at Balathal (Udaipur District) in the Mewar region of Rajasthan, however, has demonstrated that the origins of village life began in the early part of the third millennium B.C. much before the emergence of the Mature Harappan phase. The origins appear to be the local development but the evidence from the site of Balathal suggests that they could flourish after establishing contacts with the Harappans in the middle of third millennium B.C. This flourished period of the Chalcolithic at Balathal has been termed as Cultural Phase B, dated from 2400-1700 B.C.)


                  Let put this into context, the ancient Egyptian civilisation goes back to around 3-4000 BC, the Mesopatamian/Bablylonian slightly before this time. But this new find in the Gulf of Cambay offshore East India.....get this, potentially dates from around 7-8000 BC.
                  This may be true. I have also read from Science magazines about the submerged city of Dwaraka found in the Arabian sea of the Gujarat-Sind coast. May be that is the case.
                  I remember reading an interesting article in one of the Indian Express long back regarding the evolution process. The author was suggesting that there was co-existence of Intelligent humans and also Apes during some certain era, These apes were the connecting links between the apes and the Modern man. These intelligent apes had the physical features of a monkey and the mental features of humans.
                  If you see the Indian Epics of Ramayana, you might find reference to the numerous intelligent apes found in the southern part of the sub-continent. If possible I will try to get a related story link.
                  May be true, there is still lot of research going into this part. Let us hope more proof comes into light.



                    Moved to Careers and Academics.


                      THap I think this does fit into C&A cause it has to do with research which is a subset of our careers and generally done in the academic setting.

                      If there is so much traffic in this group and a lot of the posts are about Science and Technology then may be we will create another section. By traffic I am thinking something close to 5-10 post per day about Sci/Tech.

                      Hope that helps.


                        Thanks for the links BlackZero...the evidence is mounting in the sub-continent...but as you say conditions not equable for thorough well documented work. Lack of funding is a great issue...why dig up fossils when you can buy another F-7?.

                        Major river systems and an equables climate make for fertile areas...early civilisations in Egypt (Nile), Mesopotamia (Tigris/Euphrates) and Pakistan/India (Indus/Ganges) are testimony to the fact that these were essential for the success of any large human dwelling centres.

                        Wouldn't be surprised if similiar aged ruins are not located on the Eastern sea board of India in connection with the Brahmaputra river system.



                          Very it possible that Homo Sapiens and (Ape-like) Neanderthal man co-existed around 30 000 years ago, more information would be good.