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    Hatred for others and general societal decay triggered the Colorado school massacre; Let me put this question to you, the Readers - What triggers our own killing fields? What drives us to commit similar attrocities against fellow muslims and others?
    I would like to know, I need to know - if, deep in our heart, we really understand what causes such hatred & violence in us; and if we do - Are we prepared to face our demons?
    1) Pakistan: Continous sectarian strife between Shias-Sunnis; strife between Ahmedias, Christians, Hindus and Fundamentalist muslims. A fundamentalist muslim is one practising a distorted & fanatical version of Islam.
    2) Afghanistan: Muslims fighting & killing each other in the name of their own version of Islam. Main casualties - women & children.
    3) Algeria: Fundamentalist muslims killing muslims seen as 'secularists'. Almost 80,000 or more muslims have been massacred by these groups of muslim fanatics practising a distoted & fanatic version of Islam.
    4) Sudan & Nigeria: Bitter civil war between muslim majority and its christian & animist minorities. Minorities continue to be suppressed.
    5) Indonesia: Suppression, discrimination & violence directed against people of Christian & Chinese backgrounds.
    The above countries ahve been chosen as focus although violations of human rights occur unabatedly in Iran, Saudia Arabia, Muslim Central Asian Republics, Egypt, Libya, etc.
    Dear readers - help me understand why?
    And, dear moderator-I would like this topic discussed under the General Forum and not any other, Thnx.

    Trying to sneak in through the back door now Abdulmalick? I will gladly answer your question when you can answer these questions of mine:

    1) Who bombed Nagasaki and Hiroshema frying every living thing in those two cities? Have they ever said sorry?

    2) Who created and (used chemical)weapons in two world wars?

    3) Who sends armies to all corners of the globe to protect their economic interests?

    4) Who has secret sevices and spies in order to carry out covert operations?

    5) Who has initiated more wars in the last two decades for ECONOMIC reasons than any other nations in the world?

    6) Who sells arms to the third world while calling for world peace?

    Answer: Your Paymaster.

    Oh, and one final question. Which deviant sect fought alongside the British in the Jihad of 1857 in which thousands upon thousands of muslims lost their lives fighting for freedom? You know the answer don't you Abdulmalick? And things still haven't changed have they?


      Brother AbdulMalik:
      First of all your post does not belong to this forum:
      Second, I would request you please do not try to create tension between two Muslim groups. As I found from your posts that you are trying your best but until now you have not succeeded and I am sure you won't be.
      Third, If you have read my thread "Shia, Sunni, who is Killer and who is Terrorist" in the religious forum with deep thought, you should have the answers of your questions. I posted that thread purposely in the beginning of Muharam because I knew that traitors try their best to boost up this conflicting topic during these days of every year


        ....Hatred for others and general societal decay triggered the Colorado school massacre; Let me put this question to you, the Readers - What triggers our own killing fields? What drives us to commit similar attrocities against fellow muslims and others?....

        As long as the discussion is about the influences in our societies that create our "killing fields"...the topic is ok.

        Please refrain from making it a discussion about the religious/political superiority, etc....and focus on cultural issues.


          msaqibj "traiters try their best to boost up this topic every year"

          As if the killing do not happen in muharram.

          Anyone who points out this reality is a traiter.

          Those who like to pretend everything is fine within Muslim sects are patriots.


            There is a saying and it goes to the very heart of my posting: OUR KILLING FIELDS; it goes like this:

            "Eventually institutional violence will disappear, not as a result of external action, but thanks only to the calls of conscience of man who have awakened to the truth"


              Xtreme (as in Extremist) and Msaqibj:
              I will accept Xtreme's questions as responses - what else can one do with a brainwashed, self-labelled Extremist? Mr msaqibj - thank you for pointing out to the Readers to your post: SHIA, SUNNI WHO IS KILLER, WHO IS TERRORIST; I would recommend the Readers to read the post in the Religious Affairs section, when and if they get the opportunity.
              Also, Xtreme has started calling me a Qadiani when he knows I am not; he knows by calling me a Qadiani he can discredit my posts as well! I hope the Readers will always, always be vigilant against people like Mr. Xtreme.


                Kashmirigirl - forgive me for getting political. I think the original post is very political (among other things).

                AdbulMalick wrote: "Hatred for others and general societal decay triggered the Colorado school massacre... What triggers our own killing fields? What drives us to commit similar atrocities against fellow Muslims and others?"

                Malick than went on to cite a number of examples. Implicated in each of the examples is 'Islam'. According to Malick, Islam is the sole source of violence in these particular countries. In particular, what Malick labels 'fundamentalist' Islam.

                He assumes that the "atrocities" in Muslim countries are "similar" in nature to the atrocities committed in Denver. The murders in Denver were committed by upper class white teenagers in a rich suburb in rural America. Most are having difficulty understanding the reasoning behind these crimes (probably because such crimes can not be legitimized). Some blame the media, others blame poor parenting, and other's still blame psychological conditions impairing the children's judgment.

                The "atrocities" in Muslim countries on the other hand are similar to those committed in other less developed parts of the world. Many brought on by poorly developed institutions, a lack of legal structures and law enforcement, poverty, undemocratic politicization, the remnants of years of foreign control, de-colonization, war, post-war and post-nationalist struggles. It is a grave mistake to think that human rights abuses in Muslim countries are solely the product of religious intolerance and supported by what Malick terms 'fundamentalist' Islam.

                Malick goes on to cite Algeria as an example (among others), where "fundamentalist Muslims [are] killing Muslims [who are] seen as 'secularists'."

                I'm assuming that he is labeling the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) 'fundamentalist Muslims'. Like other Islamic parties, the FIS emerged as a political force after disappointed youths witnessed years of failure of a government dominated by an elitist group well entrenched in the ways of their former colonial master - the French (who by the way, were probably the worst colonialists, in terms of human rights abuses and treatment of Algerians). The FIS agenda attempted to balance individual and societal interests and at the same time attempted to address Algeria's chronic unemployment and mal-distribution of wealth. The FIS seen secularism and related ideologies as a major cause for Muslim decline.

                In its first multi-party elections since independence on June 12, 1990, the FIS won an overwhelming majority of seats. The people of Algeria had spoken, with resounding support for the Islamists, to the shock of the west. In fact the FIS won a majority in all major cities: 64.18 % in Algiers, 70.50 % in Oran, 72% in Constantine. The FLN only won 32% in municipalities and 29% in regional elections. Many voted for the FIS out of protest for the FLN, which did little to change the economic/social conditions in Algeria after the removal of the French.

                The FIS did not issue radical Islamization programs. They did not impose veiling, or close public baths, close bars or prevent women from working or voting. As the new elections neared in June of 1991, the government introduced new election laws which redrew voter districts to weaken the performance of the FIS in favor of the FLN (John Esposito, The Islamic Threat). FIS called for a nationwide strike. The president called the army in to restore order. Madani and Belhadj (FIS leaders), and five thousand supporters of the FIS were arrested, and the elections postponed. The two leaders were charged with conspiracy against the state and sentenced to 12 years in prison. The Algerian military, disregarding voters intervened in a de facto coup to prevent the FIS from "enjoying the fruits of their democratically elected and earned power" (John Esposito). The military acted days before the next elections where the FIS were poised to win another electoral victory.

                The actions of the secular government led to human rights organizations criticizing the "mounting human rights abuses and calling for the release of FIS leaders arrested for acts of peaceful expression as well as all those who have been arrested for offenses involving nonviolent speech or association," (Human Rights in Algeria since the Halt of the Electoral Process - The Middle East Watch). Anti-Islamic death squads operating in Algeria, sponsored by the government, including the Organization of Free Young Algerians and the Organisation Secrete de Sauvegarde de la Republique de l'Algerie emerged. Their goal was to suppress the Islamists, and they have taken responsibility for attacks and murders of Islamists. The FIS in response instituted a military wing the Islamic Salvation Army, "which in the absence of dialogue pursued armed struggle against the regime" (Esposito). Attacks on civilians reflect cultural and class conflict as much as they did political circumstances. The violence has deepened the polarization of society in Algeria.

                In terms of the ethnic tensions, groups consisting of Berbers also emerged. In particular the Assembly for Culture and Democracy (ACD) denounced the government and called for armed resistance against what they charged was the "fundamentalist genocide" against fellow Algerians (here they use your term - fundamentalist to describe a secularist government, John Esposito, The Islamic Threat). FIS leader Madani was released for a short period, but promptly thrown back in jail. John Esposito writes,

                "Algeria demonstrates the extent to which both a secular and a proposed Islamic state can be the source of division and conflict between secularists and Islamists, among Islamists, between Arab and Berber, between Francophone and Arabphone visions and values. Having survived a long and bloody war of independence, the Algerian people became locked in what some have termed a war of national identity, defining or redefining the nature of what it means to be Algerian. A spiral of state violence and Islamist counter-violence, of government-directed death squads and radical Islamist terrorism, produced a civil war which threatened the very fabric of civil society. It resulted in social polarization and radicalization, secular and religious extremism, in which the majority of the Algerian people were victims, a political situation with no clear winners and no resolution in sight ."

                The problem with your post is that it puts the blame of 'violence' in the Muslim countries you've cited, strictly on Islam. If you'd like I can go through each of your examples and show how certain interpretations of Islam (what you call fundamentalism) are just one factor in a series of factors leading to human rights abuses in the Muslim world. And also that what you term 'Muslim extremists' face the same abuses as 'secularists' and 'non-Muslims' at the hands of those in power. You should try to understand the development of 'Islamic fundamentalism', in terms of all factors involved - this will give you a better understanding of 'human rights' and possible solutions.

                AdbulMalick wrote: "Eventually institutional violence will disappear, not as a result of external action, but thanks only to the calls of conscience of man who have awakened to the truth "

                What do you mean by institutional violence? Whose truth? Awareness of conditions of oppression and violence is one step in a larger process.

                Side note: AdbulMalick - what exactly does your nickname mean? If it is a name, the proper spelling would be Abdul (not Adbul) Malik (not Malick). I recall in an un-moderated forum I use to post in, a number of non-Muslims would take on the persona's of Muslims and use Muslim nicknames to legitimize their posts. Are you one of those people?


                " The Algerian's criminality, his impulsivity, and the violence of his murders are not the consequence of the organization of his nervous system or of the characterial originality, but the direct product of the colonial situation ...Once again, the objective of the native who fights against himself is to bring about the end of domination. But he ought equally to pay attention to the liquidation of all untruths implanted in his being by oppression ...Independence is not a word which can be used as an exorcism, but an indispensable condition for the existence of men and women who are truly liberated, in other words who are truly masters of all the material means which make possible the radical transformation of society." (Frantz Fanon)



                  You did not answer my questions because you didn't have the answers - so there is no need to pretend otherwise. You would love to have rammed my questions back down my throat but you know when you're licked and very wisely you backed off.

                  As for my nick, terms like "extremist" and "terrorist" are coined by the West in order to demonise a chosen target so they can justify indulging in a spot of "terrorism" themselves. That you speak through their language comes as no surprise to me.

                  I assumed you were a Qadiani, but I accept that there is a different branch of Ahmediyya movement called the Lahori Group. Is that your affiliation? If not, please elaborate so I do not make this mistake again. Also, just to avoid confusion in the future, please tell us all the difference between the two Ahmedi groups and their outlook. You can do this in a separate topic if you like.


                    A desi cricket fan might say "Our fielding kills"


                      THANK YOU MRS. CLINTON !
                      The predicament of women living under tight restrictions imposed by Afghanistan's Taliban government must not be forgotten, first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton said Wednesday.
                      ``We cannot go into the 21st century without doing everything within our power to try to stand against such human rights violations and against the perils of indifference,'' Mrs. Clinton said at a Capitol Hill luncheon honoring Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.
                      The Taliban, who seized control of the government in 1996, follow a strict and disputed interpretation of Islamic law that requires women to wear the burqa, a garment covering them from head to toe, while out in public or risk being beaten. Women must stay indoors unless accompanied by a close male relative.
                      ``When women are savagely beaten by so-called religious police for not being fully covered by the burqa or for making noises while they walk, we know that it is not just the physical beating that is the objective. It is the destruction of the spirit of those women as well,'' Mrs. Clinton said.
                      The government also has banned girls from going to school. Male doctors are prohibited from treating sick women in Afghanistan, and women are not allowed to work, let alone practice medicine.
                      ``The women of Afghanistan, while other women are moving forward, are being pushed brutally backward in time,'' Mrs. Clinton said.
                      The group Physicians for Human Rights honored Feinstein for her work on the issue a day after it released a report critical of diminishing health care and human rights for women in Afghanistan.
                      ``Today we honor especially what (Feinstein) has done to bring to public attention and work toward the end of the widespread violations of women's rights in Afghanistan,'' Mrs. Clinton said.
                      Feinstein has spearheaded efforts to pass a Senate resolution calling for an end to the abuse of woman and girls in that country.
                      Mrs. Clinton told the story of an Afghan teacher who was shot to death this month in front of her students after refusing to close down a home school for girls.
                      Relatives living in refugee camps in Pakistan told human rights observers the woman was shot in the head and stomach in front of about 40 students and her family after Taliban militia burst into her home demanding that the school be closed.
                      ``We can honor her memory ... by not forgetting her story and her willingness to stand against the forces of violence and oppression,'' Mrs. Clinton said.


                        Mrs Clinton needs to spend less time worrying about Afghan women and concentrate more on the women in her own country. Maybe if she paid more attention at home she could have saved Billy boy having to pay Monica's dry-cleaning bill.


                          I guess it was impossible?

                          Please continue your discussion in politics.