Just need your comments

[Abdulla]

Assalam O Alaikum

Ok, i have an idea, this might sound bit odd, but still i want to tell you people. We always talk about jobless people and the government is always trying to minimise no. of jobless people.

What if, there is a rule that in any family if the men are working the women should not be allowed to work. But ofcourse the size of the family and other matters do count.

This will surely effect the standard of living but i think this will create a lot of opportunities for the jobless people. For example a man is getting 3000/- dollars and his wife is getting 2500/- dollars, so this 5500/- dollar amount is for a single family. But if instead of that woman another man is working in her place, he is able to feed his family, so in the same amount 2 families are feeded.

I think you got what i want to say, I need your comments ?

Assalam O Alaikum

[PG]

Or reversely, if a woman is working, man should not be allowed to work. Or son should not get a job till his father retires/dies, like old Mughal kings or only one of brothers/sisters may get job.

The entire reservation system has basis that jobs are something like gift or like sweets which should be distributed properly.

Let the person who does the job best get it. If the country functions properly, all problems including unemployment may get reduced.

[Special2]

Rather it should be the government's responsibility to CREATE jobs for the people. This is not a hard thing to do, it's just that it's either not a priority for governments or it clashes as a trade-off with some other objective the government has.

I think that any country's strength lies in its employed field force. These people should not be restricted but encouraged to work more.

Another point - skilled people don't have as many problems finding a job than unskilled people. What should be done is to initiate training for people who are unskilled or semi-skilled so that they can gain more technical knowledge and will be able to compete for better jobs.

[JAK]

Dear Abdullah

I think the Islam has very clearly explained the limits of both life partners i.e. who is to take care of bread earning and who is to take care of home, and only in such circumstances lady should work when there is no other alternative.

Apart from that, the job problem can only be solved if there is really a merit system and not everything is under quota or sectarian or like systems. In that case only the best person will get the right job and automatically right people will be fitted in right positions which will incease the output leading to the overall development and ultimately more job opportunities.

But unfortunately our politicians are totally oblivious of this simple fact which is very clear from their intention of extending the quota system, probably for another 10 years.

only i can say that may Allah Almighty save the Pakistan.

Take care

[Achtung]

Walaikum Salam,

Women should be allowed to work and should be encouraged to do so. The Prophets first wife Khadija was a working woman (although most of her rights in the workplace were guaranteed by the existing system in place prior to the Prophet recieving the message and should not be attributed to Islam). Women are actually *required* in certain fields of work (ie doctors, gynecologists, teachers, bankers). How are our societies going to prosper if half of our population are subjagated to their homes.

In terms of a "merit" system, is there one in existence today any where in the world? It seems like an idealistic notion. The Americans had to temper their "merit" system with affirmative action policy, in Canada you have a "visible minorities" policy. The same goes for gender. A woman maybe better for the job, yet a man will get it. To avoid this, regulation is put in place to insure gender equity in the workplace.

I agree with the first few posts, its the governments responsibility to create jobs and encourage development. If there not doing this job, central to their functioning, they should be elected out or overthrown.

[Dok W]

This word is banded about a great deal these days , but laws denying ANYONE the right to work , regardless of gender , size of family or ability in a given field smell a little too much like fascism to me .
I like the concept of jobs as precious jewels handed to the deserving at a certain time in life , but the sad fact is that these days to expect a position in the working world to exist beyond a generation is profoundly short-sighted . True , it is the responsibility of our governments to manage and nurture the economies they head , and jobs are the lynchpin in that process , but what about working for ourselves rather than waiting for an imperfect to system to notify us of an opening ?

[Abdulla]

Assalam O Alaikum

Islam does not allow a woman to go out of her house unless and until there is need for it.

Beside that our political system is not correct, i.e. the quota system and corruption, etc. one of the main reason of joblessness is that nowadays so many women are working without any need.

We are never going to success if we keep on breaking our limits set by Allah SWT.

Do you agree??

Assalam O Alaikum

[JAK]

Yes i agree, and this is what i said earlier.

just to give one example of this quota system:

Almost more than 10 years back i read one government controlled research intitute's advertisement requiring director and assistant director.

Qualification for director based on quota was MSc 2nd class, whereas assistant director on merit PhD. What does it reflects? any comments?

[Achtung]

Walaikum Salam,

I disagree, I don't see how our societies can prosper if we subjagate half of our population to their homes. Khadija (the Prophet's first wife was a business woman), I can't see any Islamic justification for "keeping women in their homes".

The traditionalist school of Islamic thought has successfully suplanted the notion of male superiorty in the minds of Muslim men. Women are the property of men, and exist to satisfy their sexual pleasures. They are confined to their husbands homes (because they don't own anything, in fact in many respects they cease to exist) like any other form of property. This line of thinking ignores many important aspects of creating a healthy functioning society in modern times. Muslim women who are divorced or widowed have no means of taking care of themselves, a social net does not exist in the Muslim world, consequentially they live a dismal life in poverty. Muslim women have historically worked, they have fought in wars (and continue to do so - ie Kosovo). Even in modern times the majority of Muslim women *do* work, in rural areas (which make up the majority of the Muslim world), women farm and work long hours. Women have become the last line of defence for traditionalists combatting the effects of capitalism and colonialism. My main problem with their argument is that they mask it in religious dogma which is non-existent in Islamic literature and foreign to the practices of the Prophet himself.

I'm afraid that if we continue to subjagate women to a life of seclusion, they will forget how to walk, and I don't want that for my sisters. This dehumanization and oppression of our sisters has to stop.

[Abdulla]

Assalam O Alaikum

I don't know which prosperity Achtung is talking about. First of all i would like to clear your mis-concepts about Islam. Islam has given the highest respect to women which any other religion cannot even think about. First of all you should try to know the exact status of women in Islam and do not think what ever is going on in Pakistan is Islam.

The protection Islam has given to women, others cannot even think about it. Just think the religion which prohibits a man to even look at a woman whome he does not know or is not a mehram of her. Such is the protection. And the religion which says Paradise is in the feet of your mothers. In Quran and even in many hadiths we are instructed to be good to our wives.

Now its up to you to select a system in which your sisters are safe, in a system, if they go out of their homes, no one will even look at them, in a system, which gives the highest level of respects to women. OR would you like to see your sister walking in the streets without parda, and each and every person looking at them, and inviting everybody towards zinah and a society where (in real) women are thought to be a tool of sexual satisfaction.

Brother, i would advice you to open your eyes, and do not go beyond the limits set by Allah SWT. Read what exactly Islam says about women and why it prohibits women to go out unnecessarily and then do not go against it, as neither me nor you know more than Allah SWT and what He has said will be surely the truth.

Assalam O Alaikum

[This message has been edited by Abdulla (edited February 07, 1999).]

[Achtung]

Asalamualaikum,

I think I may have sounded a bit judgmental in my last post. And I apoligize for that, and I apoligize to anyone who may have been offended by what I had written.

In my humble opinion (and its just that, my opinion), the message of Islam has been subverted and used by men, incorrectly and unjustly to subjagate women and relegate them to a position of inferiority. Inferiority, in almost all aspects of life from the role they play in society (which currently seems to be a role of servitude to men), to their role within their families. The fact that they are unable to express themselves sexually outside of their homes is not really what I was referring to, although I don't think it should be neglected either. My point was, that women should be granted the *choice* to veil or unveil, to work or to remain at home, etc.

In my opinion, Islam does not require women to veil, they are however encouraged to dress modestly, as are men. The veil and other segregative patterns evident in the Muslim world (another misnomer, there is no Muslim world), do not offer the utmost protection to women. Women in Iran are harrassed on the street by men, even when veiled, I've seen men in Pakistan glaring at women veiled and unveiled. When you package something up so tightly and secretly, the way Muslim women are, you open a new door of curiousity for men, and you open an even bigger door of sexual repression. Women who are taken into custody in Pakistan or imprisoned, for example, are 70% of the time abused, physically and sexually. These crimes are unspeakable, gang rapes and brutal mutilation of genitalia (see Human Rights Watch - Double Jeopardy, Police Abuse of Women in Pakistan). The veil is a temporary solution. Men must learn to veil themselves and curb their own desires, its not the women who are at fault.

I agree with you, Islam without a doubt afforded women with rights which they did not have previously. But at the same time, certain interpretations of Islam have resulted in gender inequity in the Muslim world which was non-existence in the Prophets time. For those who know me, they are aware that I am not a supporter of westernization or neo-imperialism. I'm not ignorant of the same situations of discrimination which exist in the western world.

[This message has been edited by Achtung (edited February 07, 1999).]

[Abdulla]

Assalam O Alaikum

Dear brother, as i have said before, what ever is going on in Pakistan or in Iran (as you said) or in any part of the world may not necessarily be part of Islam. We should not follow anything just because it is followed by a Muslim country. We should seek the Islamic point of view.

For example, for veil, a Muslim women should not see whether veil is followed in Pakistan or Iran or whatever. They should search for Islamic verdict on that.

Women and men both have rights on each other, but no doubt, men has superiority over women.

(Surah Al-Nisa - 34).
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend [to support them] from their means"

and

Surah Al-Baqara 228
"And they (women) have rights similar to [those] over them according to what is reasonable, but men have a degree [of responsibility] over them''

So it is clear that men are given natural superiority over women (but ofcourse not to be mis-used) rather it is to protect them.

Muslim women have to veil because according to Allah SWT :

"O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. (al-Ahzab 59)

And

"Tell the believing women to lower their gaze and protect their private parts and not to show off their adornments except only that which is apparent and to draw their veils over necks and bosoms and not to reveal their adornments except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their women or the (female) slaves, or old male servants who lack vigor, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And beg Allah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful" (al-Nur 31).

Then for those women who go out (or work) without any necessity there is a verdict from Allah SWT:

"Stay in your houses and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance and offer prayer perfectly and give Zakat and obey Allah and His Messenger" (al-Ahzab 33).

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) categorically prohibited privacy between a man and a non-related woman. He said,

"A man is never alone with a woman except that Satan is the third."
Recorded by Ahmad and al-Tirmidhi. Al-Albani says it is sahih. Al-Albani, Sahih al-Jami, vol. 1, p. 234.-JZ

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said,
" I have not left behind me any temptation more harmful for men than women."
Recorded by al-Bukhari and Muslim

"Be wary and cautious of this world and be wary and cautious of women. Verily, the first trial that afflicted the Tribes of Israel was with respect to women."
Recorded by Muslim.--

From the above i hope the Islamic point of view is clear. So we should try to save our sisters and ourselves from fire and our sisters should not forget the warning of Prophet SAW:

Sahih Bukhari - Volume 8, Book 76, Number 456:

Narrated 'Imran bin Husain:

The Prophet said, "I looked into Paradise and found that the majority of its dwellers were the poor people, and I looked into the (Hell) Fire and found that the majority of its dwellers were women."

With out any doubt we should accept the verdict of Allah SWT and His Messanger SAW because we are ignorant of what is good for us.

"And it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you Allah Knows but you do not Knows. (al-Baqarah 216)

And also without making excuses we should accept the truth as Allah SWT said :

"Say: The things that my Lord has forbidden are illicit acts, whether committed openly or secretly, sins [of all kinds], un-righteous oppression, joining partners [in worship] with Allah for which He has given no authority, and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge" (al-Araf33).

May Allah SWT save all of us from the fire of hell and enable us to understand His deen and follow it. (Ameen)

Wa ma alaina illal balagh

Assalam O Alaikum

[Achtung]

Dear Abdulla,

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this issue Our views seem to be clashing. At the same time I think we both value many of the same ideals and desire an environment conducive to the healthy functioning of our societies.

In terms of the question of veil, I think the Qur'anic verses are open to differing interpretation. The first verse you quoted is directed at the Prophet's wives, while the second verse is vague. What is it exactly that men are "protecting" women from - other men? The veil is limited in its "protection" of women, its a short term solution (in my opinion a solution which has little to do with religion) to a long term problem. Women regardless of being veiled or unveiled are abused in every respect of the word. I think the veil should be looked at as a product of social, cultural, political and economic factors (not to mention religious). The veil is a symbol of cultural authenticity in the Muslim world, a world which is clinging to values which are being threatened on a daily basis. It is not solely a product of religious thought - we should look at it in the historical context in which it has and is evolving.

In terms of the other verses you quoted, the first batch seem to demonstrate males superiority over women quite well. The Qur'an itself addresses men throughout, even when discussing issues pertaining to women. Men are clearly superior to women. While the later hadiths, in my humble opinion are referring to a different time and not very useful in the world we live in today.

My main issue is one of "freedom of choice". I believe that Muslim women should have the freedom to choose weather or not they wish to veil or unveil, work or stay at home, etc. These choices shouldn't be made by men. Women, in my opinion, are not the property of men. But it would seem as though, from certain Islamic interpretations, that this is the case.

I'm afraid that I may come off as very anti-Islamic, I hope thats not the case. And I don't mean to offend anyone. I realize that discussions regarding religious belief can easily get heated and insulting or questioning what others hold as sacred can be very ignorant of a person. Accept my apoligies if I come off sounding offensive, it is not my intention

[kashmirigirl]

Interesting discussion guys.

However, I think it is more appropriate in another forum. Please move it there.

[This message has been edited by kashmirigirl (edited February 08, 1999).]