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Rubiya Nur · Dec 6, 1998, 12:04 AM

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[This message has been edited by Rubiya Nur (edited July 30, 2000).]

Resistance · Dec 6, 1998, 05:46 AM

Some Very Good points Miss Nur. I do understand you apprehensions regarding work and society.
I wonder why our Ulema feel that the only true expression of modesty is a draped woman.
Modesty must prevail in all aspects of life.
The arrogant assumption that enforcing Hijab on women will be good is not a sign of modesty.
I wonder why the men in our culture who passionately advocate hijab for women find the time to stare at them without shame.
While we are playing The Role of the Orwellian Big Brother/God, let us pass another rule; No Staring.
Frankly speaking, we live in a sexually frustrated environment with no social outlets. The men view women as possessions of honor who are to be tamed through Religious Law.
The Hijab in my opinion has not helped the status of women in Islamic Societies. The Middle Eastern Countries have an embarrassing concept of women. This practice has also segregated the women from main stream.
The most disturbing trend is that our men view women without pardah as sexually permissive. They tend to see them as fair game. There have been incidents where girls in Western Clothing were raped, and the rationale given in court was their attire. Even the Urdu NewsPapers have a " She deserved it " Attitude towards such victims.
Lets Work On the Men for a change
No one has hurt the emancipation of women more than Indian Cinema. The Indian moviemakers rely on the lowest and most vulgar instincts to profit economically.
It is not uncommon for Indian movies to portray the Rape of women as humor. The general public living in segregation has no comprehension of the tragedy in the crime of Rape. This disturbing trend in Indian Entertainment was noted by Times Magazine and Several Human Rights organization.
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I am glad some women prefer to follow their own instincts rather than our self appointed Legislators

jewels of insignificance · Dec 6, 1998, 05:52 PM

suggest...
said He,
do not impose!
no compulsion is there in religion

"when they saw them, the said, surely these are the people who are on the wrong path, althugh they had not been appointed as watchers over them!"

" o muhammad , you are just an adivser, and we have not appointed you a watcher over them!"

" and we have not appointed you a watcher over them"

suggest..
said He,
do not impose!
no compulsion is there in religion!

and i'll wait up in the dark for you to speak to me..... and i'll open up.. release me!
-black jewels of insignificance

Sabaa · Dec 7, 1998, 07:15 AM

Hmm, where do I start. There are so many issues I'd like to address which have been pointed out here.

Firstly, let me say that I am a muslim who wears the hijab. When you start the topic by saying that hijab "fails the test of logic" do you mean that you question Allah's wisdom and try to see whether what Allah says is logical or not according to whatever you think?

Allah (swt) says in the Quran that when believers are told to do something, they say "we hear and obey". Once we are convinced that Islam is correct and the Quran is the word of God, then we do not question his commands.

It is one thing to deny that the command of hijab is in the Quran and Sunnah, but it is another to ignore it and say that yes, it is there, but it is an "unnecessary domination of women".

And Rubiya, I do stand shoulder to shoulder with men at home and at work and I wear the hijab, but for me, what is most important is what Allah has commanded me to do, not what other people think.

I'd also like to reply to the comments made by 'jewels of insignificance'. When Allah says in the Quran that there is no compulsion in religion - this refers to the fact that noone can be forced to become a muslim. However, once a person becomes a muslim, he/she does not pick and choose whichever bits he/she likes - a muslim must submit to Allah on all hukum whether easy or difficult.

Rubiya Nur · Dec 7, 1998, 10:01 AM

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[This message has been edited by Rubiya Nur (edited July 30, 2000).]

Resistance · Dec 7, 1998, 04:47 PM

Amen.

ladlaone · Dec 7, 1998, 05:31 PM

Rubiya Nur,

I am not familiar with how this Shariah law was initiated in Pakistan but here is my opinion (not on Hijab but laws in general)

Sometime laws are created for the good of man in general. This is stretch but consider the seat belt laws that exist in most US states. How many people would wear a seat belt if it was not enforced by law.

My Pops still says they are inconvenient and and uncomfortable but he wears them because it is the law.

In return the law has saved many folks who normally would not wear seat belts in general.

Now...if you don't want to wear Hijab...don't but don't say that a law should not be created to promote/enforce a part of Islam.

--ladlaone

jewels of insignificance · Dec 7, 1998, 06:34 PM

sabaa: "that hijab "fails the test of logic" "
the real topic "the LEGISLATION of hijaab....."

hmmm i see...

"everybody except the captain played well."
could correctly be quoted as"
"....the captain played well."

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we see the world like it appears to be!
we believe in what we see,
prejudice is our belief!

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Dear Saba:

saw things...
so much clearer...
once you..
are in my rear view mirror..

". When Allah says in the Quran that there is no compulsion in religion - this refers to the fact that noone can be forced to become a muslim. However, once a person becomes a muslim, he/she does not pick and choose whichever bits he/she likes - a muslim must submit to Allah on all hukum whether easy or difficult. "

what abuot those
who did not "choose" to be muslims? those who were born mulims? those who live in muslim families but dont know about islam?

we cant call them non muslims , but we can not force them to follow our own rules either.
although the koran says.." a muslim must submit to Allah on all hukum whether easy or difficult. "
it says so, on a personal level, to the person reading the koran!
it does not allow you or me, to impose these rules on anyone, muslim or non muslim!

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as for those who are muslims:
sabaa my sister, look at your words..

" he/she does not pick and choose whichever bits he/she likes "
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what is "freedom of conscience" then????
whatever i have read in this short life of mine, is false??

one of the basic rules of islam is "freedom of conscience!"

allah tells us to "choose between right and wrong!"

in your own words, he/she has the RIGHT to pick what he likes!!

this is a human right islam promises!
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please give it a second thought!
.. and i'll wait up in the dark for you to speak to me... and i'll open up... release me!
- black jewels of insignificance

Canon · Dec 7, 1998, 09:46 PM

The question of hijab for Muslim women has been a controversy for centuries and will probably continue for manymore.

Some learned people do not consider the subject open to discussion and consider that covering the face is required, while a majority are of the opinion that it is not required. A middle line position is taken by some who claim that the instructions are vauge and open to individual discretion depending on the situation. The wives of the Prophet(S) were required to cover their faces so that men would not think of them in sexual terms since they were the "Mothers of the Believers", but this requirement was not extended to other women.
The word hijab comes from the Arabic word hajaba meaning to hide from view or conceal.
The question now is what is the extent of the covering?

The Qur'an says: "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;and that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands..." Qur'an 24:30.31

"O Prophet,tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw thair outer garments around them(when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known(to be Muslim) and not annoyed..."Qur'an 33:59

Hijab is not merely a covering dress but more importantly, it is behavior, manners, speech and appearance in public. Dress is only one facet of the tatal beig.

For both men and women, clothing requirements are not meant to be a restriction but rather a way in which society will function in a proper, Islamic manner.

Peace!!!

Sabaa · Dec 8, 1998, 04:20 AM

Absolute freedom is a myth.

In any society, laws and restrictions have to be made whether for the social, economic or politicial system.

Should it be allowed for people to walk around naked if they liked? I doubt it. And so society puts some restrictions. Even her in the UK, where they pride themselves on freedom, a person can be arrested for dressing obscenely or 'indecent exposure'.

When you say the state should not impose any laws on others, well that is anarchy. I can steal from your house if I want, because there would be no restrictions.

Once people feel they need laws, then the next matter to decide upon is whose laws they want to follow - man-made laws, Clinton's laws, Blair's laws, Nawaz Sharif's stupid laws, or Allah's laws. Surely Allah is the one who created us and is "closer to us than our jugular vein" and Allah is the one who knows what is best for us. Will anyone want to contest that?

jewels of insignificance · Dec 8, 1998, 03:37 PM

saba...

"absolute freedom is a myth"
means
"islam is a myth"!

Koran teaches Secularism! A secularism which has not ever been seen anywhere in the world!

"Should it be allowed for people to walk around naked if they liked? I doubt it"

YES! people should be allowed to walk naked IF THEY LIKED! and if you are a good muslim.. then walk pass by.. without noticing the nude lad!
and your wage lies with your allah, the nude mans wage lies with his allah!
we are no one to decide between the two!!

"Even her in the UK, where they pride themselves on freedom, a person can be arrested for dressing obscenely or 'indecent exposure'"

well uk is not followong the "islamic" secular concept!

"When you say the state should not impose any laws on others, well that is anarchy"

and when the state imposes ISLAMIC LAWS on others, it is ..??

"Once people feel they need laws, then the next matter to decide upon is whose laws they want to follow -
-) man-made laws,
-)Clinton's laws,
-)Blair's laws,
-)Nawaz Sharif's stupid laws,
-) Allah's laws.

yes! that exactly is what i am trying to say....

the state should let the people CHOOSE their favourite laws!

let people CHOOSE from right and wrong!!

if allah wanted to make EVERYBODY go on the right path, then he wouldnt have let iblees live!!

he created good as well as evil, and man has to CHOOSE!

zman · Dec 8, 1998, 03:55 PM

Very well said , Jewel dude. People love to find excuses to justify their choices. It almost seems like people are really scared of what others might think instead of what Allah(SWT) has ordained. The only thing for certain is death and once that becomes a reality for an individual, then there will be no more contemplation and tests of logic.

Later on
Zman

Resistance · Dec 8, 1998, 10:15 PM

Islam does favor secular traditions. It lays no specific emphasis on any from of government as long as justice is served.
The religious right wing often in their zeal for discipline overlook this magnificent aspect of Islam.
Islam does not favor the establishment of a clergy nor does it cultivate religious elitism.
The greatest gift that Islam gave mankind was the freedom of thought and the absence of acountability to self proclaimed men of authority. . The early glory days of Islamic history are well colored with Great thinkers who challenged convention.

Resistance

Mohammed Ali · Dec 9, 1998, 12:42 AM

Assalamualaikum.

Sabba jee, I fully agree with you but people
like the Jewel always like to find excuses to justify their position. I found some interesting topic about hijab and would like to share with all:

The Obligatory Conditions For An Islamic Hijab

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1. Covering ALL Of The Body

It is an agreed position by many respected scholars that the face and hands of the woman must be covered. Some scholars say it is permissible to uncover the face and the hands of the woman as long as there is no fitna (infatuation) caused by this action. Two things must be taken into consideration

a) if she is beautiful and beautifies her face and hands with external substances, or

b) the society around her is corrupt where men do not lower their gaze, then it is prohibited for her to uncover her face and hands.

On the authority of the wife of the prophet (pbuh), Umm Salama (RA) said:

"When the verse was revealed that they should cast their outer garments over their bodies' was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.

2.The hijab must not be a display

The hijab itself must not be a display. Allah ordained it so as to cover the beauty of women and not for showing off. Allah (swt) says `And not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent.' (S24:31).

AND

`And stay in your houses and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance.' (S33:33).

It is in no way logical that the hijab itself be a source of display.

3. The hijab must not be transparent The purpose of wearing hijab must be achieved. In order for the hijab to be a cover, it must not be made of transparent material making the woman covered only by name, while in reality she is naked. The prophet (pbuh) is quoted as saying: "In the latest part of my Ummah (nation of Muslims) there shall be women who would be naked in spite of being dressed, they have their hair high like the humps of the Bukht camel, curse them, for they are cursed. They will not enter Al-Jannah and would not even perceive its odour, although it's fragrance can be perceived from a distance of 500 years travelling by camel" This indicates that a woman could cause herself a grave and destructive sin if she puts on a garment that is thin and transparent and which clearly shapes her body's features.

4.Hijab must be roomy, and not tight.

The hijab is a safeguard against fitna. If it is tight, it will be descriptive of the woman's body and this violates and defeats the whole purpose of hijab.

5.The hijab must not be perfumed

On the authority of Ad'Diya Al-Maqdisi, the prophet (pbuh) said:

"Any woman who perfumes herself and passes by some people that they smell her scent, then she is a Zaniyah (adulteress)."

6. The hijab shouldn't resemble the dress of a man

Imam Ahmed, an-Nissa'ee reported the prophet (pbuh) to have said: "Women who assume the manners of men are not from us and also those of men who assume the manners of women." Abu Huraira narrated that: "The Prophet (pbuh) CURSED the man who wears the dress of a woman and the woman who wears the dress of a man."

7.The hijab must not resemble the garments of the kuffar

Abu Dawoud and Ahmed have related the prophet (pbuh) said: "The one who take the similitude (manner) of a certain people, then he/she becomes one of them."

Abdullah bin Ummar (RA) said: "The Prophet (pbuh) saw me wearing two garments dyed in saffron (orange), whereupon he said: these are the clothes (usually worn) by the kuffar, so do not wear them."

8.The hijab should not be for fame

Abu Dawoud and Ibn Majah have related the prophet to saying: "The one who wears a garment designed for a worldly fame, Allah will make them wear a garment of humility on the Day Of Resurrection then he will be set ablaze." The garment of fame is any garment a person wears to make themselves look famous. This applies whether the garment is highly precious and shows admiration to the life of this world or if it is chosen of a low quality to show lack of interest to this worldly life. The person may put on clothes with distinct colours so as to draw attention, act proudly and/or arrogantly.

9.Concealed ways of display

Examining the various conditions about the hijab one can clearly recognise that many of the young Muslim women are not fulfilling these conditions. Many just take "half-way" measures, which not only mocks the community in which she lives, but also mocks the commands of Allah (swt). They consider what they put on now wrongly as "hijab" So, O muslimoon, be mindful to Allah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh), and do not deceived by those who "bless" this action of yours and conceal their true intentions. Do not be deceived, and there is no excuse to follow the evil.

If you are sincere in achieving Al-Jannah, then be mindful of these things, insha'allah

Wassalaamu aleikum warahmuthullahi wabarakatahu.

Part 2:

Hijab (Veil) and Muslim Women
Ms.Naheed Mustafa
"My body is my own business."

MULTICULTURAL VOICES
A Canadian-born Muslim woman has taken to wearing the traditional hijab scarf. It tends to make people see her as either a terrorist or a symbol of oppressed womanhood, but she finds the experience liberating.
I often wonder whether people see me as a radical, fundamentalist Muslim terrorist packing an AK-47 assault rifle inside my jean jacket. Or may be they see me as the poster girl for oppressed womanhood everywhere. I'm not sure which it is.
I get the whole gamut of strange looks, stares, and covert glances. You see, I wear the hijab, a scarf that covers my head, neck, and throat. I do this because I am a Muslim woman who believes her body is her own private concern.

Young Muslim women are reclaiming the hijab, reinterpreting it in light of its original purpose -- to give back to women ultimate control of their own bodies.

The Qur'an teaches us that men and women are equal, that individuals should not be judged according to gender, beauty, wealth, or privilege. The only thing that makes one person better than another is her or his character.

Nonetheless, people have a difficult time relating to me. After all, I'm young, Canadian born and raised, university-educated -- why would I do this to myself, they ask.

Strangers speak to me in loud, slow English and often appear to be playing charades. They politely inquire how I like living in Canada and whether or not the cold bothers me. If I'm in the right mood, it can be very amusing.

But, why would I, a woman with all the advantages of a North American upbringing, suddenly, at 21, want to cover myself so that with the hijab and the other clothes I choose to wear, only my face and hands show?

Because it gives me freedom.

WOMEN are taught from early childhood that their worth is proportional to their attractiveness. We feel compelled to pursue abstract notions of beauty, half realizing that such a pursuit is futile.

When women reject this form of oppression, they face ridicule and contempt. Whether it's women who refuse to wear makeup or to shave their legs, or to expose their bodies, society, both men and women, have trouble dealing with them.

In the Western world, the hijab has come to symbolize either forced silence or radical, unconscionable militancy. Actually, it's neither. It is simply a woman's assertion that judgment of her physical person is to play no role whatsoever in social interaction.

Wearing the hijab has given me freedom from constant attention to my physical self. Because my appearance is not subjected to public scrutiny, my beauty, or perhaps lack of it, has been removed from the realm of what can legitimately be discussed.

No one knows whether my hair looks as if I just stepped out of a salon, whether or not I can pinch an inch, or even if I have unsightly stretch marks. And because no one knows, no one cares.

Feeling that one has to meet the impossible male standards of beauty is tiring and often humiliating. I should know, I spent my entire teen-age years trying to do it. It was a borderline bulimic and spent a lot of money I didn't have on potions and lotions in hopes of becoming the next Cindy Crawford.

The definition of beauty is ever-changing; waifish is good, waifish is bad, athletic is good -- sorry, athletic is bad. Narrow hips? Great. Narrow hips? Too bad.

Women are not going to achieve equality with the right to bear their breasts in public, as some people would like to have you believe. That would only make us party to our own objectification. True equality will be had only when women don't need to display themselves to get attention and won't need to defend their decision to keep their bodies to themselves.

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Naheed Mustafa graduated from the University of Toronto in 1992 with an honours degree in political and history. She is currently studying journalism at Ryerson Polytechnic University

Announcement

Legislation of Hijab Fails The Test Of Logic.

Legislation of Hijab Fails The Test Of Logic.

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