Need your input

[Mr. T]

Here is another question, similar to the one posted by Mudassar.

What do you believe in, "Kun, Fayakun" or "Big Bang"? And on the same token, should we keep religion and Science, separate?


[This message has been edited by Tariq Khan (edited 08-28-98).]

[zman]

Without a doubt, "Kun Fayakun" for Allah(SWT) is the creator off all worlds and if he wishes for something to happen, he says Kun Fayakun - and it happens. Science is definitely a big part of religion. For e.g the birth of a child from conception to birth has been described in Quran in details. Like this, there are so many other scientific facts in Islam.

[Resistance]

The word faith by its very defination operates on the principal of belief. It doesn not rely on proof or emperical evidence. Sceince Operates on a different level alltogether, its progress is a result of constant experimentation. One is Absolute while the other is incomplete. The two are not comparable and do not compliment each other.
Hence In order to preserve the persuit of factual knowledge and the spirit of relegion one should not mix the two.
Good Question Mr Khan. More thoughts later.
Resistance

[someone else]

Almost all modern cosmic scientists believe in the big bang, and a deep study of classic as well as modern cosmic sciences, strengthens one's faith in Allah.

I think if we seperate logic and religion, we minimize our chances to reach the truth. In order to understand religion, we must understand science. koran insists us to observe things around us, and to understand them, because this makes our faith all the more strong. Here's one of the many verses :
"Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alteration of night and day, and the ship that runs in the sea, with profit to men, and the water God sends down from heaven therewith reviving the earth after it is dead, and His scattering abroad in it all manner of crawling thing, and the turning about of winds, and the clouds compelled between heaven and earth -- surely there are signs for people who understand."
(from chapter 2, the cow)
This verse clearly indicates what i said above. Studying science strengthens our faith.. if we understand.

A belief which relies on proof is far more strong than a blind one. In order for us to find proof of his existance, Allah tells us to study science, as in above mentioned verse.

" Clear proofs have come to you from your Lord, Whoso sees clearly, it is to his own gain, and whoso is blind, it is to his own loss;.."
(from chapter six, the cattle)

[Resistance]

Dear Freinds Someone else and Mr Khan,

I merely wish to state the different definations of Faith and Sceince.
The english language defines faith as belief or confidence in something.
Sceince is defined as a disciplin or Knowledge of a subject under study.
The two are essentialy different. We must understand that Logic is not conducive for spiritual growth. I for one have made peace with this conflict between Science and relegion. I have decided to keep these two far apart as possible.
For example at this point in time I am waiting for my good freind to join me for a game of tennis. My logic based on past expereinces tells me He is going to be late for sure. But something called hope or faith has made me unlock the front door, expecting him to show up on time.
By the use of this example One more thing comes to mind. Perhaps my desire to play tennis leads me to beleive he will be here before the sun goes down. This is the dogmatic aproach ; that is beleiving what one wishes to be true.
Ah the door bell just rang. He is here. There is a God!
Resistance

[Mudassar]

Assalam alaikum

People make the mistake of calling knowledge contained in the Qur'aan as being science. Knowledge in the Qur'aan is revelation and is not something which we believe after we have experimented with something we didn't understand. We believe in it because we believe that Allah (S.W.T.) sent the prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) with a clear message , the Qur'aan. A muslim doesn't just have faith in Allah, a muslim has faith in Allah's angels, His books, His prophets, the day of jugdement, predestination and life after death. (Tell me if I have left anything out)

With science we cannot prove the existence of God since to do that we must first experiment with God by putting Him into laboratory conditions Astaghfirullah this is not possible.

Science proves something through experimentation but if this experimentation proves revelation then of course it will strengthen our faith in the revelation and ultimately our faith in Allah.

kh.

[Resistance]

I think Mr Mudassar has made an excellent point. If one is to consider God as the essence of all creation, it would be impossible to prove his existence through an experiment. As the lab we operate in could not encompass the majestic presence of the Allmighty, it would be an exercise in futility. Good point Mr Mudassar and well said.
Resistance

[someone else]

"Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alteration of night and day, and the ship that runs in the sea, with profit to men, and the water God sends down from heaven therewith reviving the earth after it is dead, and His scattering abroad in it all manner of crawling thing, and the turning about of winds, and the clouds compelled between heaven and earth -- surely there are signs for people who understand."
( verse 165, from chapter 2, the cow)

This verse CLEARLY orders us to study science, and i think we should respect the koranic revelations.

this verse clearly indicates that by studying forms of science, (it points out different types by relating it to understanding of different phenomena) THOSE PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND, WILL FIND CLEAR SIGNS OF ALLAH!!!!!

resistance, how can u say, "We must understand that Logic is not conducive for spiritual growth." this is not at all according to our everyday obsrvations, and directly against the koranic teachings.

mudassar says, "With science we cannot prove the existence of God since to do that we must first experiment with God by putting Him into laboratory conditions Astaghfirullah this is not possible. "

mudasaar this statment, and many others by you cleraly show that you havent study enuff science to discuss it. laboratory is not the place to prove theories other than the chemical or physical ones. theories such as the presence of a creator are proved by
general logic, reasoning, observation and examples.
.
Cosmic scienctists believe in allah and the big bang, and for that we dont need to perform any experiment on allah! it is logically VERY POSSIBLE to prove the existence of Allah, and many famous scientists have tried to do that.

u people think that faith doesnt demand proof?? then why duz koran say:
" " Clear proofs have come to you from your Lord, Whoso sees clearly, it is to his own gain, and whoso is blind, it is to his own loss;.."
(from chapter six, the cattle)

this verse shows that those who find and understand the proves will be the ones who gain!!!!!
which clearly proves my point, that faith based on proof is always stronger than the faith which is proofless.

if u people study science with an intention to understand it, then u will find clear prooves of existance of allah.

Logic and human mind fails to believe that a universe could me made by itself and not a creator. the only point which goes against it it, that if the universe can not be there without being created by a creator, how can god be there without being created ?
the logical answer is, if we suppose X created god, then the logical consequence is, who created X, and if Y created X, then who created Y? AND THIS CAN GO ON...so it is BUT LOGICAL TO BELIEVE THAT ATLEAST THERE IS ONE CREATOR of EVERYTHING, WHO CREATED THINGS WITHOUT BEING CREATED HIMSELF. no other belief can satisfy logic, than the belief, that we have to believe in one creator, who created everything. that creator is God!
We believe that allah is the only creator of everything, as he says in the koran.

this is just one example of presence of God, and by this logic a cosmic scientist started to believe in god, when he was an atheist b4.

[someone else]

"Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alteration of night and day, and the ship that runs in the sea, with profit to men, and the water God sends down from heaven therewith reviving the earth after it is dead, and His scattering abroad in it all manner of crawling thing, and the turning about of winds, and the clouds compelled between heaven and earth -- surely there are signs for people who understand."
( verse 165, from chapter 2, the cow)

This verse CLEARLY orders us to study science, and i think we should respect the koranic revelations.

this verse clearly indicates that by studying forms of science, (it points out different types by relating it to understanding of different phenomena) THOSE PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND, WILL FIND CLEAR SIGNS OF ALLAH!!!!!

resistance, how can u say, "We must understand that Logic is not conducive for spiritual growth." this is not at all according to our everyday obsrvations, and directly against the koranic teachings.

mudassar says, "With science we cannot prove the existence of God since to do that we must first experiment with God by putting Him into laboratory conditions Astaghfirullah this is not possible. "

mudasaar this statment, and many others by you cleraly show that you havent study enuff science to discuss it. laboratory is not the place to prove theories other than the chemical or physical ones. theories such as the presence of a creator are proved by
general logic, reasoning, observation and examples.
.
Cosmic scienctists believe in allah and the big bang, and for that we dont need to perform any experiment on allah! it is logically VERY POSSIBLE to prove the existence of Allah, and many famous scientists have tried to do that.

u people think that faith doesnt demand proof?? then why duz koran say:
" " Clear proofs have come to you from your Lord, Whoso sees clearly, it is to his own gain, and whoso is blind, it is to his own loss;.."
(from chapter six, the cattle)

this verse shows that those who find and understand the proves will be the ones who gain!!!!!
which clearly proves my point, that faith based on proof is always stronger than the faith which is proofless.

if u people study science with an intention to understand it, then u will find clear prooves of existance of allah.

Logic and human mind fails to believe that a universe could me made by itself and not a creator. the only point which goes against it it, that if the universe can not be there without being created by a creator, how can god be there without being created ?
the logical answer is, if we suppose X created god, then the logical consequence is, who created X, and if Y created X, then who created Y? AND THIS CAN GO ON...so it is BUT LOGICAL TO BELIEVE THAT ATLEAST THERE IS ONE CREATOR of EVERYTHING, WHO CREATED THINGS WITHOUT BEING CREATED HIMSELF. no other belief can satisfy logic, than the belief, that we have to believe in one creator, who created everything. that creator is God!
We believe that allah is the only creator of everything, as he says in the koran.

this is just one example of proof of presence of God, and by this logic a cosmic scientist started to believe in god, when he was an atheist b4.

[Sarfraz]

So many philosphers and prophets came and gone but the folks have still to understand. Yawn. Oh, another yawn!

[Quark]

Salaam. "Universe is a space filled with Atoms (uncuttable),the rest is all opinion. (DEMOCRITUS) Function of the brain is to regulate body functions,(autonomic nervous system,and hormonal regulations),and understand the environment,so as to enable the organism to catch food,and stay away from danger.Hence propagation of life.Homo sapiens are the most evolved ,primarily due to the presence of neo cortex.this part of brain regulates some primaryfunctions,i.e sensation of all perceptual modalities including tactile(touch)gestatory(taste) olfactory(smell) visual(sight) audition(sound) ,along with motor control.These primary functions are also present in primates,and indeed in less evolved animals too.What we have ,that other animals dont is the presencs of Huge left parietal lobe giving us the function of language(there is robust data that supports it,you can see that in any neurology book),visual spatial orientation,it is like a mini calculator of brain helps us calculate the speed of ball we want to catch,make proportional pictures in our head just by reading of things we have never seen and much more.And more than that we have frontal lobes,the area of brain responsible for organization and planning. As I said before,purpose of brain is to understand environment,we percieve it through our 5 senses,analize it with our prior experiences stored in memory,take approprate steps,and store part of it in the memory for future comparisons. Humans are small creatures,at times exposed to big dangers ,specially over the the years prior to scientific development.Like predetors,extremes of weather, natural disasters,and needed so many factors to go right for them to be able to get food ie rains, absence of floods and the like.(now I am taking about the past 12000 yr) With relatively poor information base they looked at the mighty mountains,seas,sun ,and other phenomenon so much more powerful than they could understand. A primitive form of analysis is concrete logic(kids under 12 yrs or so still think in that fashion)examples of that is the cause effect principle.This form of thinking is " pre probability stage" thinking (probability is an abstract concept not readily understood easily).I must have done something wrong and that is why I am encountering adversity vs There was some probability for that to happen,and this time it did. Cutting it short ,in my opinion,need to control the uncontrolable ,with primitive form of thinking were the precipitants leading to the emergence of the social phenomenon of religion.(there rae psychological reasons to,but I dont want to go in details of that right now)When we ask a question ,we look for an answer by analysing the information we have,and experimanting to gather more of it ,if already existing pool is not suficient.This is called science.social sciences follow the same principles of course.Religion is a sourse of guidence and infor mation .There are about 600 religions today and 6 of them are major.So if we choose to follow any ,we should know there are 80 percent or more of our species that are as smart as us,and disagree with our religion.That is a major # in terms of stats.The only way you can scientifically prove a religions worth is if its impact on the followers can be shown through systematic analysis. Now before coming back to the topic,I would add this, in order to keep religion in percpective,Islam is one of the many religions,its sourse of information is 1400yrs old and without validity,(like all religions) it has never been proven to be efficatious, i.e in terms of its followers being satisfied as individuls ,and prosperous as a nation. Religion could have been beneficial, in history,but unfortunately it has a lot of inertia,and is difficult to grow out of.We are doing now what church did to galelio.The quicker we get out of it the better. So Mr.Khan Big Bang has quite a bit of reason backing it.But where we dont have to look for an answer is Holy books.Check in a lab,that is where the truth lies.Even if something is wrong ,you generally know the probability of it being wrong ,and keep it in the right place. So much for now(excuse my typing) Khuda hafiz,for now

[Sarfraz]

Doesn't matter who. Anyone who encounters something for the first time starts from superstition which logically(provided one uses his brain, most of us use only 10% of it in the course of whole life) leads to religion and religion on its part logically guides towards science - death.

Not yet clear. Keep posting. We will face it and explore. Bingo!!

Personally, I don't know what Big Bang or 'Kun, Fayakun' is. If someone could explain me, I am sure, I will come up with an answer. And a good one. The man with special knowledge!! Only perpetually trails half a step behind God.

[Mudassar]

Assalam alaikum

Every human being has natural instincts which must be satisfied.Islam teaches us how to correctly satisfy these instincts. One of these instincts is the spiritual instinct. This spiritual instinct makes the Human believe in a higher existence which is better than him/her. For example many people in the west, especially America, believe in aliens. These aliens are supposed to be very advanced in science and technology. When someone doesn't believe in God they usually substitute God with another existence or another idea of God to feed their Spiritual instinct. If you went to these people to give you proof on the existence of aliens they would probably show you photos of strange lights (which could be anything) then the odd few will say that they have actually been abducted by aliens. These people have no proofs for the idea that these aliens have advanced technologies yet they use the assumption that if they came here then they must be advanced. Now, these people keep faith in the existence of aliens.

Their faith didn't start from the proofs it started with their spiritual instinct.

to make my point clearer,

1.spiritual instinct - I need something to satisfy it.

2. Faith - making sure I only satisfy my instinct from one particular source.

3. Proofs - Help increase in faith and so the instinct is satisfied more efficiently.

(a) Sometimes these proofs may not be valid but I need to satisfy my instinct. (i.e. conspiracy theories)

(b) These proofs must be valid because I am on the search for truth and if the proofs are not valid then I will change my faith.

In Islam we have two types of muslims, worshippers and scholars.

Worshippers would be classed under Proofs (a). If you ask a worshipper why he believes in Allah he will not be able to convince you about the existence of Allah and a few may even lose faith in the existence of Allah in a non-muslim environment or when talking to people of other faiths because of invalid proofs or uneducation or the other person is holding a much more valid argument.(Like many have since the abolition of the Islamic state) A few even though they lose the argument will keep their Faith in Allah since their faith, Islam, is very efficient in feeding their spiritual instinct. Worshippers usually hold their proofs with things heard 'by the way'.

Scholars would be classed under Proofs (b). Scholars will not accept anything heard 'by the way'. They need valid proofs. They will be able to prove the existence of Allah and convince others to follow the path of Islam. Their faith is very hard to break since in order to break their faith you need to break the valid proofs that they hold. Their faith with the grace of Allah is unbreakable.


My dear brother someone else

No one on this page is saying that we shouldn't study science.

Unknowingly you have actually agreed with my point that science cannot prove the existence of God.

Why are you being so hostile towards me. All I did was ask you for proofs to justify your argument.( Regarding evolution theory)

Also I am not a hypocrite, I already said I don't hold anything against anyone with an opinion which is different to mine because I know I am not always right. So if you have an opinion which you feel is true then show me your proofs because I have not failed to show proofs to justify my argument.

I pray that you, a fellow brother, will stop hating me.

kh.

[Resistance]

Dear Rationalist Mr Quark,
Thankyou for presenting an excellent aproach to relegion.
The slight probability of burning in eternal hell motivates most of us in to a beleiving state of submission.
Lets keep science and relegion separate or else logical men like you will destroy our "sugar candy mountains" in the sky.
Educated muslims have a constant need to support their faith with sceintific evidence. This growing dependancy is a positive sign, symbolising the journey towards secular humanism.
I have a bone to pick with the God of Islam. At one stage we are given the right to accept or reject faith and simultaneously we are also warned of the dire consequence.If one is not to be seduced by the pure virgins of Paradise then The fires of hell should come in to play. I have chosen the pure virgins though I fear the All Knowing God may well be aware of my hypocrassy.
Resistance

[Niaz]

Assalam O Alaikum !!!

I am very much in agreement with Mudassar and Resistance.

Science no doubt is serving the mankind to a great extent. Science is what we human being know. BUT Quran is wat Allah SWT has told us. No doubt HE has all the knowledge.

I would say that Islam and science are two different things. If u will start seeking logic and science in Islam and Quran u will never succeed as its so deep that our mind is not capable of that. There are so many things which Quran and sunnah has mentioned 1400 years ago, and now science is proving it as true. BUT we should not perform those acts just because they are scientifically good for us. NO, then, all the ajar is gone. If u see logic and science in Sunnah, and u r islamic acts, then no use of u r faith, it means u do not believe in GOD and Prophet (PBUH).

What God and His Prophet(PBUH) has said, bas, thats wat is true and thats wat is fact. Science does not believe in Jin, but Quran says they are creation of Allah SWT, Scientists do not believe in Magic but Quran says magic is a reality. So it means science is wat is useful for the needs in the world, like for making electrical appliances, medical science. like that... BUT as a muslim we should not compare Islam with science, or try to find science in Islam.

Someone else, the ayat u gave doesn't orders us to learn science, Allah SWT addresses the kuffar and mushrikeen in that who worship idols and trees and non living things, to see around them, that this whole world is not made by them... , and this verse is not ordering us to learn science. I would like to give u an advice, when ever u r reading Quran, try to pick the situation and the nazool of the Ayat or Surah, as it will help u to understand the meaning of the Ayat more comprehensively, and u will know for which kind of ppl it is, and wat Allah SWT orders in that.

In the end, i would like to say science should never be interferred with Islam, Islam (Quran / Sunnah) is the ultimate source of knowldge.

Allah HAfiz / Assalam O Alaikum