Our loved ones...

[Nova]

We are all humans , with our strengths and weaknesses.
Two major tasks in early life, are to feel secure, in an otherwise seemingly big and dangerous world, and form our own identity.
In our early life we percieve ourselves as weak and helpless, very dependent on our care givers...This causes a problem, cause we feel very scared at being angry at them...Our ability to express frustration towards them and resolve it in the process depends on our caregivers ability to tolerate this ...Culturally our parents are not very good at it....
Secondly, our initial identity revolves around our caregivers . we identify with them ....Our need to see ourselves as acceptable is so strong that we refuse to see any weaknesses in them ( which inturn would reflect on us) The stricter the rule book , the greater is this need to see our parents as absolutely free of any flaws...
Yeh tamheed iss liyyaye bandhy kai , I wanted to ask a question...
How comfortable are you guys , in seeing weaknesses of your loved ones, and allow yourself getting angry at them with out guilt, and without the fear of losing them..

[Nova]

Dehatan, Boss, Naik and Fraudia....
I am particularly interested in your responses.....

[BoSS]

Nova Sahib salam! I try not to miss any of your posts cuz I like reading mind twisters like the question above ;-)

Growing up, we r given a set of rules to abide by. To challenge these rules takes us out of our comfort zone and gives us a insecure feeling. Now, the question is whether one should bring the issues on the table if he/she doesn't agree with his loved ones. Whether to bring up their weeknesses perceived by him and sort things out without hurting anyone's feelings. for example, topics like homosexuality and religion are not easy to discuss as majority of the people have strong beliefs in these areas. The fear of losing a loved one overpowers the issue itself.
Now, getting back to ur question. It would be very inhuman if one doesn't have any feelings of loss or fear while challenging a loved one....but what I have found is that its always better to share point of views and undestand or respect the other person. It reenforces love if things work out.

ciao,
BoSS

[TortureRack]

nova its really painful
oh God
sum times i cant express my feelings to my fiancee coz i fear that she'll get angry
and i cant live widout her
and it is not a dialogue

[NaikLarki]

Nova Sahib...Tasleemaat!!!

Now you are introducing a very dangerous trend here;-)
i mean yooN banday ka naam likh ker response maangNa ppl like me who usually use "khisk'alazine" policy....wo becharay toy phans ge na

Kher back to your question....

I have a tendency to drag in Islam in every kinda situation...and i know u'll say...Naik! put Almighty aside for a while
so i better not start wid ..."Rab kehta hei..."
but i'll stll say ke i don't like terms like "dependency on our caregivers"...

Now the simple answer to ur question will be that i believe in "Respect"...
and to me Respect is equivalent to Acceptance...
I think we all shud be able to accept ppl (i said ppl...not just the luved ones) for who they are

And about "fear of losing them"....
Losing ur loved ones by telling them about their weaknesses???

Come on Sahib...when u say loved ones....tou yeh rishtay itnay kacchay tou nai hotay??
and i think its a lot easier to tell ur loved ones about their weaknesses than telling someone u r not very close wid...
coz u know them well...u do?....and u know how they'll react in return....
my point is that u have to find a right way to tell them about itinstead of getting angry on them...and bla bla

For example I know how to tell my dad about his weaknesses i know him...all i have to do is do some homework before talking to him....
find couple of hadith to support my point...and tell him...Daddy you r wrong

and i gotta jet now "Jason and Argonaut" is on
Rab Rakha




[This message has been edited by NaikLarki (edited May 07, 2000).]

[Rarediamonds & Gold]

Everyone has flaws in them. Wether they want to admit to it or not. Usually we perceive ourselves as being perfect. But in reality, no one is perfect. Wise are those who admit to their flaws and try to correct them. As far as being comfortable is concerned when it comes down to pointing the faults of our loved ones, then in my opinion if we love someone truly and are aware of a flaw that person might be carrying, then we should point it out politely so that the person may correct it. If we choose not to bring that person in terms with their fault, then we simply won't be "fair" in our relationship with them. However, one should keep in mind, that there is a big difference between disrespectfulness and pointing to a flaw. It can be done in a manner of respect and free of any harsh remarks which might offend the feelings of a loved one.

[Nova]

Boss,
Sir jee aap kaa husn-e-nazar hai.....
What I was trying to point out was our general inability to feel anger at ppl we are getting ( or are) close to ( Intimate walla close...love walla close), and consequent need to displace it...
Torture Rack,
Aint life tough..
Naik,
Dangerous trend? I never claimed to be benign....
Like I was saying to Boss sir jee ( Buss allaih salam kee kasar reh gayye hai...)...I will rephrase my question...Can you feel angry at some one you love ( we dont necessarily love parents) and still feel love not being destroyed....I am not talking about parents here...I am talking about intimate relationships....
I dont think you have a formed answer to this, so take time and think through.
If I am able to put the words right , your response would have the answer to the question you asked me a few days back..

[NaikLarki]

haiN what is this? therapy session?

>>>>>>>I never claimed to be benign....

Some thing is going on here...u guys admit it or not..."Evolution"!!!!

>>>>>>>>I am talking about intimate relationships....
I
http://www.pak.org/gupshup/blush.gif**Blushing**
Janay meri bala i don't even know how to spell intimate relationships...


PS. Hazrat BoSS aliah salam!!! Pk note this for ur title

[NaikLarki]

and i am trying to think what i asked u few days back...??

[hayaa]

lets look at this from the perspective of the one with the weakness, whatever that may be.
how does one get out of the guilt that he/she feels after letting his loved ones down. of course we all agree that no one is perfect. you're allowed to make mistakes...(even i am not perfec http://www.pak.org/gupshup/rolleyes.gif how can average people be? http://www.pak.org/gupshup/rolleyes.gif hehe)

anyways, how do u stop someone from keeping on making mistakes because they think they've lost their loved ones' respect and can never make up for it again. and so they see no point to fixing or renewing the damage that has been caused in the relationships, which only causes to deteriorate it further.

------------------
I believe in order to understand, so that I may understand what I believe.

[Nova]

Hayya betty,
Kaissi hoo?
There are no weaknessess, only perceptions of them....
You can never let your loved ones down , cause they love you for whatever you are, including what you percieve as your weaknesses...
I dont get angry at someone for what they are, only for what I wanted them to be, and only when I feel I am not getting what I want from them....Thts all within me..Agglayy baicharray kaa tou koi kasoor nahein...
Naik,
A definition of intimacy is in order here....Want to have a go? ( Physical intimacy has nothing to do with it)
BTW...A few days back you were talking about the right to destroy whats yours...

[NaikLarki]

Sahib...when i said that we shud be able to accept ppl for who they are...tou uss meiN sab log aa jatay heiN....intimite wale close bi aur dosray luved ones bi...

and what u r implying here? correct me if i am wrong....u think we shud have different set of rules for diff kinda relationships??

and there u said that there is no such thing as weaknesses...Ditto....yes there is no such thing...we get mad at ppl for them not fulfilling our expectations...so the problem is not them....problem lies in our expectations.....every one is free to choose his path...every one is free to do what ever he/she wants....no matter what....
and if we get hurt from someone else's action...its our own choice...we choose ourselves to get hurt....so its our problem....not theirs....but its easy to blame someone else rathar than ourselves......

And about that question that do i have the right to destroy something that belongs to me....?

i may sound a lil selfish here...but i truely believe ke "yes"....i have every right....remember...we r free to do whatever we want....and if someone gets hurt....thats his/her choice....case closed....

PS. i hope i have answered ur question now..???

[Nova]

Voh baat sarray fassanay maiN jiss ka zikrr na thaa,
Voh baat unn koo bohat nagawaar guzry hai..
Naik,
I didnt ask any question.

[Shirin]

Nova, thanks for an unusual and interesting post.

" Two major tasks in early life, are to feel secure, in an otherwise seemingly big and dangerous world, and form our own identity."

These are not conscious tasks, they are programmed into us. They are part of our biological survival mechanism. We have to learn to survive dangerous situations. If a baby didn't cry his mother might ignore him. Maybe not so much these days but I can see a time when a baby who didn't cry could die of hunger.

"In our early life we percieve ourselves as weak and helpless, very dependent on our care givers..."

It's not just perception, it's fact! All mammals and some other animals are like that. Biological programming at work again.

"This causes a problem, cause we feel very scared at being angry at them...Our ability to express frustration towards them and resolve it in the process depends on our caregivers ability to tolerate this ...Culturally our parents are not very good at it...."

Then the problem is culture, not biology?
But both biologically and culturally, there should be a suitable way to resolve these problems. The truth however is that often we have so many hang ups and because of our own childhood problems and fears, we are unable to look at this question logically and compassionately; we see a set of rules and not the human beings and their needs behind it all. We are ruled by fear for the consequences, not love which gives us the courage to try and overcome them.

"Secondly, our initial identity revolves around our caregivers . we identify with them"

True, a child doesn't know for a long time that he is separate from his mother.

"....Our need to see ourselves as acceptable is so strong that we refuse to see any weaknesses in them ( which inturn would reflect on us) The stricter the rule book , the greater is this need to see our parents as absolutely free of any flaws..."

Part of the process of growing up is realising that we all make mistakes. People who need to present themselves are perfect or those who need to see other human beings as pefect have a hard time with relationships. We all know that human beings make mistakes, no-one is without them. Peace comes when you learn to accept this fact and love people despite their flaws...

"How comfortable are you guys , in seeing weaknesses of your loved ones, and allow yourself getting angry at them with out guilt, and without the fear of losing them"

Dear Nova, whan I get angry at someone I love it is often my own frustration or tiredness speaking. It helps me also to communicate with the person in a local, constructive way, such as, "When you leave garbage sitting around the house it makes me feel really unappreciated" or "I need a break, I'm tired, would you please put the kids to bed" not "You idiot I'm so tired and you can't even see it". Often when we aren't "allowed" to express anger or disappointment the resentment gets bottled up and spills over into other things, so it's well to think what the real cause of the emotions is - kids being cheekier that usual, which you might be able to handle normally, but after you have seen a high electricity bill you pick the first chance to let them know you're mad...

My realtionship with my parents has become much easier since I began to see that they weren't perfect, that their choices and mine aren't the same, but that they made the best choices they could in every chance and that they love ma dearly and that I love them too and wouldn't have them any other way. Same with my husband but the nature of that relationship means there are daily interactions so the "adjustments" are much more frequent.
Lots of thoughts there, sorry if I seemed to be wandering.

[NaikLarki]

Sahib...

"Zikr wo yahi kerta tha sareehan lekin
meiN jo puhancha tou kaha, kher yeh mazkoor na tha"

Cheers

Ps. and i was referring to ur initial question sir ji....