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Corrections....not....Questions...Mr. Taj!

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    Corrections....not....Questions...Mr. Taj!

    Dear Farooq,
    After going thru your site, I must say that no wonder why West have so many misconceptions about Pak. n Islam.
    First of all your heading “ Pak. culture in UK” sounds weird. A culture only flourishes n evolve within its surroundings so Paki. culture can only be in Pak. those who think that they can practice it elsewhere are heading south for North pole.

    History of Pak. in UK:-
    Their occupations prove that they still have same 60s mentality i.e. they themselves never been to school nor they want their kids to go.

    English as first lang. sounds like a good change to me but educating their kids .....
    .......This evolution ‘ll probably take place by the end of the .................world?? hopefully

    BTW, Buying land is still a good investment in “corrupt” Pak.

    MARRIAGES:-
    In our society VALUES play an important role. We believe in COLLECTIVISM rather then INDIVIDUALISM therefore we’ve stronger family system then civilized West. This is one of the reason we’ve got far less Divorce rate then West, virtually no cases of Granny dumping and shoving parents in the nursing homes.

    “Learn to love yourself” I reckon totally misinterpreted by you.
    I believe when someone loves oneself then he/she values the LOVE and therefore respect others for whatever the person is whether Chamar, Kasai etc.

    About arrange marriages, to be honest I don’t really know, they are right or wrong but successful for obvious reasons.

    Marriages in UK:-
    Relations in PK. may be the case with u but it was never the case when an Entrepreneur (shopowner) in N’castle told me that He’ll marry in PK. ‘cause local PK. girls are “Bohut Nakhray Wali” and a computer scientist in London told me that he imported his wife from Pk. ‘cause he wants to practice n preserve his culture (absurd).
    BTW, You are probably generalizing your family rituals to every Pakistani marriage.

    Valima:-
    Its a muslim tradition n can’t be banned in PK. though eatables are not allowed anymore.
    Can u please straighten your records?

    High Divorce Rate:-
    It cud be ‘cause of your UNIQUE IDENTITY n English as first Lang., isn’t it?

    Dowry:-
    I’m surprized that Pakis. in a civilized society like UK still believe in this, its akin to “JAHIL” Pakistani Pakis.

    Cousin Marriages:-
    In later chap. of Qur’aan (Holy book of Muslims’), it gives the defination of Mehrum i.e. relations one can’t marry and Na-Mehrum-: Rest of the people and cousins fall in this category which ultimately brings the concept of HIJAAB. Prophet followed same so do we.
    I found your reasoning “FOOLISH”.

    Reasons against:-
    It is because of gener. of inter-cousin (3,4 Gen.) marriages causing identical blood grouping and genetical disorders as far as my knowledge is concerned.

    Tribes:-
    What u r calling tribes are the existing though dying “Caste System” in Punjab, Sindh and some other areas of Pk.

    Arai:- Thanx for enlighting me, never heard of them and FYI Bin Qasim never entered from Persia rather landed in Deebal (1hr. drive from Khi.) in Sindh to rescue Arab traders who were prisoned by Raja (King) Daahir. not to spread Islam, dearest sir.
    Take a peek in history, can u?

    Choudhry:-
    A sub-caste of ARAIN, they may be Entrepreneurs in UK but basically Farmers, cultivating lands for their Lords.

    Mirpuri:-
    They are from Mirpur as u said, its not a tribe. By your this defination Karachiites, Lahoris and Islamabadians belong to a TRIBE as well. I found it quite discriminating but I don’t blame u for this, thats the way you people discriminate in UK.
    And the Mirpuris 've the same "TRIBES" u mentioned within themselves.
    Rajpoot:-
    What involvements they had with Mughals? Can u please clarify.

    Sindhi:-
    The only similarity their lang. have with Arabic is “script” like Urdu or any other Lang. of the Pak.

    Women In Islam:-
    Can u please rephrase it to “ The less religuous Paki. family is, the greater restrictions on the women”.

    Muslim Org. n sects:-
    Muslims have only two sects i.e. Shiattes n Sunnis, rest are groups or cults. They might be Muslims but teachings may not be Islamic.

    Conclusions:-
    Mr. Taj its good to have a "website" and I appreciate your efforts to provide knowledge about So called Pakis. in UK but your site is “Dis-informng” millions of people about Pak. n Islam.

    And believe it or not, your knowledge about Pak. shows your naivite and ignorance and I wudn’t have gone to your website but since you are insisting everybody overhere to go n visit your website, I must say that your site is one of the most buffonic and full of crap site, I ever been on.

    One thing for sure Mr. Taj whether u people marry UK born Pakis. or otherwise, u ‘ll remain a 3rd class citizen of a 1st world (developed) country unlike us 1st class citizen of 3rd world country.

    Feel free to be peeved,
    Kaleem









    #2
    Muzna-G, can u please Edit this as well, too Bloody long.
    Cheers,
    Kaleem

    Comment


      #3
      KKNIAZI:

      Thankyou for your feedback on my site.

      I'll respond to your comments shortly and make changes to the site if necessary.

      Please not that my site has been around since 1997 and does give every visitor an opportunity to complete a feedback form.

      The site has been changed following comments received since it's launch and I will continue to do this as and when necessary.

      The vast majority of comments (and I've received over a thousands visits a week and hundreds of individual responses) mainly from UK Pakistanis have actually commented on the accuracy of my site.

      Farouq Taj.

      Comment


        #4
        Dear Farooq,
        As u said the comments u got are mostly from UK "Pakis", who, like u, never been to Pak. or if ever then restricted to their own relatives and above all boasting their blue passport, so what u expect them to learn about the culture and its hues n nuances. you've gotta Live like a common Paki. to understand them.

        Though sadly we don't 've trust, honesty in our society and we are corrupt but whats the reason?
        Its simple our honest people, like u, became li'l materialistic and fled the country for couple of more bucks, they didn't have the nerves to stand the social problems nor the flair to work as/for nation, eventually we left with all the CORRUPT people to run the country and this is why perversion is ubiquitous.

        If a Pakistani can plan the economy and change the fate of country like Korea, advise central American countries on their economy why can't he change Pakistan, just give it a thought.

        Mr. Taj its easy to raise finger on others like u did in case of "Bhutto posse" and Dodi but very very difficult to look into oneself.
        Thanx for your time,
        Cheers,
        Kaleem


        Comment


          #5
          hi! all

          well siad kaleem
          THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT ANY THING ON WEB IS NOT ESSENTIALLY AN AUTHENTIC DOCUMENT AND WE FIND IT HARD TO BELIVE THAT YOUR SITES HAVE BEEN VISTED BY THOUSANDS EVERY WEAK BUT EVEN IF IT'S TRUE THAT DOES NOT NECESSARY GURATNEES THAT THE VISTIORS WERE PAKIS AND EVEN IF THEY WERE DOES N'T MEAN THAT THEY AGREED WITH YOUR STATEMENTS ABOUT "OUR" CULTURE MADE BY A BRITISH BREED WHO WAS BORN IN AFRICA ..........
          BUT IF THEY DO ..............(YOU KNOW)

          TAKE CARE

          Comment


            #6
            WHAO! Now ur talkin' KK Uncle!
            Good shot! Keep it up! YeSsSs, we shud be returning back instead of TURNING backs on Pakistan! Just for a couple of more $$$$... now that's cheap http://www.pak.org/gupshup/redface.gif

            Comment


              #7
              Interesting comments from both sides.

              Correct me if I have misunderstood . . .though ex-patriats are an honest lot, they have abandoned their homeland for a few bucks and they do not have the "nerve" to deal with social issues/concerns . . .okay, for the sake of argument, let's say this holds true. Now, does this mean that everyone left in the country is corrupt? And should the blame for Pakistan's socio-economic ills be therefore dumped on those that migrated to struggle elsewhere in the world? Hmmmm.

              The opinion that ex-patriat Pakistanis "fled" the homeland for a "couple of more $$$" and are "materialistic"can only be termed immature. For if one was to expand on this theory then it would force us to conclude that the actual "cream", meaning those that were not attracted by the dollar (i.e. the moral and ethical ones), never left the country. Hence, Pakistan should be in great shape.

              Finally, the baseless insinuations that are made with reference to arrogance stemming from foreign passports reflect a spiteful and ignorant attitude. Let's get over this and keep in mind that many, many Pakistanis living outside of Pakistan did not get to their current location by choice. They were brought there by hopeful parents attempting to provide a future with better opportunity. That's the category I, personally, fall into. Now I am bound to remain within a moments notice/reach of an elderly parent. Then, when someone decides that I am less patriotic, less dedicated to the welfare of the homeland, less than ethical and less capable of dealing with social issues just because I have both a green and a blue passport, then . . .well, simply put. . . . I resent it.

              It's always easier to generalize. But the easy way is never the best way. Don't be fooled.





              Comment


                #8
                KKNIAZI:

                "A culture only flourishes n evolve within its surroundings so Paki. culture can only be in Pak.those who think that they can practice it elsewhere are heading south for North pole. "
                This is a very simplistic view of culture that you hold and one that is not in touch
                with reality. The third generation of Pakistanis are growing up here in the UK with the passage of time it is inevitable that our communities in the UK will be affected by our surroundings and consequently our original cultural values will change.

                As time passes you will begin to see increasing differences between those of us
                living here in the UK and native Pakistanis. There are differences between Pakistanis
                living in the UK and Pakistan already and these differences will become more marked with each successive generation. My site attempts to capture our culture here in the UK as it exists today NOT as you or anyone would wish it to be. It is a 'tell it like it is' site.

                "BTW, Buying land is still a good investment in “corrupt” Pak."
                Yes if your willing to hire thugs and pay hefty bribes to ensure no one takes it.

                "In our society VALUES play an important role. We believe in COLLECTIVISM
                rather then INDIVIDUALISM therefore we’ve stronger family system then civilized
                West. This is one of the reason we’ve got far less Divorce rate then West, virtually
                no cases of Granny dumping and shoving parents in the nursing homes."
                Yes my site talks about the collective attitude versus the individual liberty approach. It was only an attempt to explain the behaviour of Pakistanis who force their daughters into arranged marriages. Your proud comment regarding the lower divorce rate in Pakistan is irrelevant. Few women in Pakistan have the option to divorce.

                “Learn to love yourself” I reckon totally misinterpreted by you. I believe when someone loves oneself then he/she values the LOVE and therefore respect others for whatever the person is whether Chamar, Kasai etc. "
                You've clearly misunderstood. The learning to love yourself you've quoted from the Notes section of my site and then you try to marry it with text from the racial tribes section. Two unrelated sections of the site !

                "Marriages in UK:-
                Relations in PK. may be the case with u but it was never the case when an Entrepreneur (shopowner) in N’castle told me that He’ll marry in PK. ‘cause local PK. girls are “Bohut Nakhray Wali” and a computer scientist in London told me that he imported his wife from Pk. ‘cause he wants to practice n preserve his culture (absurd). BTW, You are probably generalizing your family rituals to every Pakistani
                marriage."
                Let me reiterate; My site attempts to capture our culture here in the UK as it exists today NOT as you or anyone would wish it to be. The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis here in the UK marry their cousins. This often entails a trip to Pakistan. In the section on marriage rituals I have explicitly stated that not all families will practice every ritual. They are all listed in order to make this section comprehensive.

                "Valima:-
                Its a muslim tradition n can’t be banned in PK. though eatables are not allowed
                anymore. Can u please straighten your records? "
                A waleema without eatables ! Surely a Waleema is a feast by definition. I'll have a look at some religious sources, if you can have a Waleema without a feast I'll edit the site accordingly.

                "High Divorce Rate:-
                It cud be ‘cause of your UNIQUE IDENTITY n English as first Lang., isn’t it? "
                I mention English as a first language matter of factly, you seem to interpret it as a source of pride ? It is a change that I mention as it is one of the most significant changes that have taken place. We have a situation here in the UK where the first language of the parents differs from that of their children. The high divorce rate has many possible causes which I cannot go into in this short post. I take exception to your cheap jibe as divorce is a very
                serious subject.

                "Cousin Marriages:-
                In later chap. of Qur’aan (Holy book of Muslims’), it gives the defination of
                Mehrum i.e. relations one can’t marry and Na-Mehrum-: Rest of the people and
                cousins fall in this category which ultimately brings the concept of HIJAAB. Prophet followed same so do we. I found your reasoning “FOOLISH”.

                Reasons against:-
                It is because of gener. of inter-cousin (3,4 Gen.) marriages causing identical
                blood grouping and genetical disorders as far as my knowledge is concerned. "
                The reasons that you find foolish are not mine, I have tried to explain why some
                Pakistanis consider it Sunnat to marry a cousin. It is a justification for cousin
                marriages that I have heard from many Pakistanis.

                In breeding causes problems from the first generation onwards and not after successive
                generations as you seem to think. The problem worsens with successive generations. You can educate yourself about the consequences of in-breeding by reading the following article:

                Phuppi Ki Beti, Mamoon ka Beta
                www.chowk.com/UniversityAve/azaidi_mar0698.html"

                "Arai:- Thanx for enlighting me, never heard of them and FYI Bin Qasim never
                entered from Persia rather landed in Deebal (1hr. drive from Khi.) in Sindh to
                rescue Arab traders who were prisoned by Raja (King) Daahir. not to spread
                Islam, dearest sir. Take a peek in history, can u? "
                If you live in the UK then buy a copy of the Jang newspaper and have a look at the
                matrimonial columns. You'll find plenty of Arai's asking for other Arais for marriage.
                I personally know of many Arai.

                Thankyou for educating me about Bin Qasim, at last some decent feedback ! I'll update
                the relevant section. Thanks.

                "Mirpuri:-
                They are from Mirpur as u said, its not a tribe. By your this defination Karachiites,
                Lahoris and Islamabadians belong to a TRIBE as well. I found it quite discriminating but I don’t blame u for this, thats the way you people discriminate in UK."
                I've tried to list the different 'groupings' of Pakistanis here in the UK. I opted for the word tribe as I couldn't find a more appropriate word to describe the groups that exist here. Yes these groups exist and they generally never inter-marry. Keep in mind that I'm trying to describe things as they are, I'm not endorsing any of the practices.

                "Rajpoot:-
                What involvements they had with Mughals? Can u please clarify."
                Next time I see the Rajpoot friend I'll ask him and update the site.

                "Women In Islam:-
                Can u please rephrase it to “ The less religuous Paki. family is, the greater
                restrictions on the women”.
                No because I don't lie, sometimes the truth hurts, I'd rather have the truth.

                "Muslim Org. n sects:-
                Muslims have only two sects i.e. Shiattes n Sunnis, rest are groups or cults.
                They might be Muslims but teachings may not be Islamic. "
                Again my site tells it like it is. We may wish that there were only two sects but
                the fact is that there are plenty here in the UK. In addition I've sat in many Friday
                sermons where the imaam has declared praying in the rival sects mosque as null
                'dua kabool nahi hooti hay' sects exists, they shouldn't but they do and I've listed
                the key sects. Also note that I've listed sects AND organisations.

                My conclusion:

                I was hoping for some constructive feedback but I have been disappointed. My site is and remains an accurate portrayal of the culture of Pakistanis in the UK. I am always happy to receive constructive feedback and make changes to the site in order to maintain it's
                standard.

                -----

                KKNIAZI and Daysee Behna:

                "we shud be returning back instead of TURNING backs on Pakistan! Just for a couple of more $$$$... now that's cheap"

                "Its simple our honest people, like u, became li'l materialistic and fled the country for couple of more bucks, they didn't have the nerves to stand the social problems nor the flair to work as/for nation, eventually we left with all the CORRUPT people to run the country and this is why perversion is ubiquitous."
                It's time to watch the football match Nigeria vs Denmark so I'm going to cut and paste a response from an internet friend of mine Asim Hayat from Norway. He was responding to the very accusation you two are levelling at those of us who have chosen to live outside Pakistan. On a personal note I was born outside of Pakistan and so was my father, we have lived in East Africa for two generations. In addition an increasing number of Pakistanis in
                the UK were born here outside of Pakistan. We have not fled from anywhere.

                Asim Hayat:

                [QUOTE]You accuse us as "people who have left home", what concern is it of ours to
                see If Pakistan Survives or perishes. Well, pardon me for saying, but thats where you are out of your depth, Sir. Accusing us of being armchair visionaries
                maybe partially right, but without vision nothing gets accomplished. Chaudry
                Rehmat Ali had a vision, for without it you would still be a maulana sahib in
                Hindu-majority India. Have you perhaps possibly considered some of us did
                go back to Pakistan after studying abroad to equip ourselves with the latest
                information on new technologies, vibrance and energies ready to put to good
                use to alleviate the sickness within Pakistan. But it turned out we were not
                required there, we were told not to produce foreign degrees as proofs of our
                intellect, ability, qualifications, instaed we were asked where were we born? In
                Punjab or Sind, What language did we speak at home? Urdu, punjabi, sindhi,
                baluchi. What do our parents do? Who does my father know in higher up
                places? Can he get the interviewers nephew, neice, sone, daughter,
                brother-in-law suitable employment here or abroad via recommendations,
                what recommendations i had.... not educational ofcourse.

                Then you get on your high horse, and look down on us little people, who left
                the country not of their free will, but as an economic necessity. Still its us the so
                called sons who forgot their land, who send valuable foreign exchange
                regularly back to give this sick land the injection addiction it has so become
                used to in order to merely keep breathing.Its the pakistanis abroad who help
                out in whatever capacity, albeit not on a grand scale, but nevertheless to
                increase foreign reserves, without which, the country would have been sold to
                the highest bidder decades ago, except now even the "World
                Auctioneers"(IMF) hesitate to put a price on the net value of this country you
                call it your own. As it stands it is perhaps more valuable in parts than the total
                of all its parts. Its called hostile takeover, buy it and break it and make money
                from its parts but i digress.

                Maulana sahib, One does not want to leave ones country if the country has
                what one needs to progress and survive. Take case of Norway where i am
                currently living. It has a healthy infrastructure, primarily due to the 2 million barrels per day of oil, everybody is happy, nobody wants to go outside and
                work, as the norwegians are fortunate enough to get much from life while at
                home. Its altogether different for third world countries like ours who are living
                on borrowed times from the IMF. Till such time as we hit mentionable natural
                reserves in excess of 1 million barrels per day, we can not justify all staying
                back and dying of lack of creative and satisfying jobs to do. I do not want to
                be the frog at the bottom of a water well thinking this is the world, here. i
                wanted to jump out of the stagnant water, to see far away places, and then
                come back and tell the other resident frogs who thought the well was their
                world about stories from distant lands, an encourgae them to change their own
                destinies.

                Perhaps, i am very charged on this issue, but this does rock my nerve to hear
                sentiments like the ones maulana sahib mentioned time and again. we, who are
                living abroad, are looked upon as traitors and that we dont give a damn, when
                indeed its perhaps the people abroad who miss this wonderful land and are
                deeply hurt to see it going as a lost cause and want to brain-wave and try to
                come up with schemes to better the system and somehow make it come out of
                the maelstrom it is currently heading into.U want proof of that. Just viosit any
                customs office at the airports and see how much respect, and etiquette these
                hard toiling sons of the land get on return to their sohni dharti. OK the
                educated are treated a bit better, but u should check out the way the poor
                pathans from the gulf countries are treated, and these poor pathans labour in
                the hottest of climates 50 Degc in the shade watering the emirates to make it
                greener for the golfers from the world to unite. These pathans too send in
                foreign exchange and yet they are treated as if they are robbers....

                P.S I still visit my country regularly, and am continuosly disappointed to see no
                change in the mentality, perception, and persona of the people. Indeed not
                much can be improved in a country which has an abysmal educational record,
                along with various other records of intolerance and such as the ones maulana
                sahib has mentioned.

                I will not say i am a proud Pakistani, for we have little to be proud about,
                except we are still here on the map as an independent country. thats our
                biggest achievement so far, in fifty years. amazing fact indeed. But i have alot
                of regard for my homeland, and sitting here i feel i can do lot more good for
                my country, if even in terms of articles like the one under attack, or the mere
                matter of economics, the hard earned green paperbacks flowing back in, than
                to be in Pakistan and sitting on my backside, and writing articles. For then i
                might not even had enough to provide two meals a day for my family let alone
                the time to write about the plight of Christians, and even then certainly not on
                this expensive medium.

                Maslows hierarchy Model of motivation clearly shows that in order for humans
                to achieve something in life they have to have at the bottom rung of needs,
                basic requirements such as air, water, food. The next step is the emotional
                fulfilment arena, whereby the need for love and recognition comes in, and its
                on the third rung, the ability to be all that one can be comes into the picture.
                Take away air water food, and the would be aspiring achiever dies. take away
                the emotional contacts and the guy loses psychological perspective on life. So
                if Pakistan doers not provide me with a job to provide food, an essential
                factor, i am of no use to Pakistan, as i am going to be a mere casualty in the
                millions of casulaties we have every year.[QUOTE]

                Farouq Taj.





                [This message has been edited by farouq_taj.]

                Comment


                  #9
                  Dear Mr. Taj,

                  Have you ever stopped to think that the fact that Pakistan has survived DESPITE the many evils and hostile factors working so hard to destroy it speaks volumes for the will power and determination of some of
                  its citizens to make the Pakistani experiment work??
                  Had it not been for the dedication of these few people, Pakistan would be NO MORE.
                  True, we've had more than our share of problems, but we've survived, and inshallah will survive again through the current turmoil. However, negative thinking like your's and Resistance's will not help. Why must we keep lamenting on 'what could have been' instead of taking the bull by the horn and dealing with it. Enough
                  has been said about the evils in our society, but have there been any practical solutions forthcoming?? Talk is cheap, (sometimes it's free) . Regarding your comments about Pakis in England, I don't see any problem with people trying to keep and pass on their culture to the future generations. Why is that an issue?? The Brits are hanging on to their riduculous monarchy obviously for SOME good reason. Why do we as Muslims and
                  or Pakistanis have to apologize for being either?? Where is your sense of self pride and self confidence?? Why do we always assume that everything Western is good.
                  So lets get REAL Taj. You have to start RESPECTING YOURSELF first before you get any respect from others. May I suggest
                  that you stop apologizing for being a Muslim (if you are one0 or for being Pakistani. Try to focus on the positives and work on improving the negatives. Don't ever make the mistake of losing your cultural identity.. you'll end up nowhere.

                  So long

                  Antidote

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Hey Looks like everybody has gotta “JOOTA” in their hands and they are running after me, following my butt.

                    Upnay hee giraatay hain nashemun pay BIJLIAN.

                    Anyway, BeeJamaalo! Bhateejee thorhay “DAAALUR” mujhay bhee daydo, kunglaa hogayaa hoon, yaar.

                    To Muzna Bibi:-
                    My point was only to emphasize the gravity of situation ‘caused by the inflow of Professionals into the western world from PK and don’t you think that its dreadful and isn’t it because of materialism which your parents or anybody else had when they were “Hopeful of future with better oppurtunities” (its like looking for heaven in Hell) or easy life as I put.

                    This problem ultimately left the country in the hands of “CORRUPT” people and hence new generation open their eyes in perverted society and they take corruption for granted and plunder the country following the "precedent" so judge for yourself, ma’am. I don’t blame the EXPATRIATES for the socio-economical miseries of Pak. but should they hype so contemptuously about it as it has nothing to do with them? And I appreciate your sense of duty towards your ageing parent but tell me how many people bound like u .
                    Well I don’t know whether having Blue P’port is ethical or not or it wud make u less patriotic or not but feet in two camps esp. more in “Blue camp” where u pay all taxes, spend your money and showing your loyalty to other, sounds weird.

                    Here in UK “whites” say those who haven’t been loyal to their on motherland , how can they be loyal to us? sounds plausible isn’t it?

                    I may be li’l rude n spiteful, while mentioning the attitude of “Paki.foreigners”, but u haven’t seen these people coming to Pak. and asking for “Mineral water” n canned COKE from their poor relatives or A Desi with his “White” wife shopping around in “DASH” (departmental Store) in Bahadurabad and frowning at a salesman for a trivial thing and not to mention in “ENGLISH”.

                    Generalization of an issue is often related to majority, if u don’t fall into this category then u don’t have to “JUMP”.

                    Farooq Taj:-
                    I knew its gonna irritate you but I didn’t know that you’ll try to ride on my back, anyway I know how to throw a MONKEY off my back ‘cause I’m pretty use to of people like you....but.....the setback is that we’ve met very late, unfortunately.

                    Culture- A Paki. culture means a culture in Pak.,which grows, flourish, evolve, change or whatever within Pak. And the culture among UK bred has gotta western influence which is far from de facto Pakistani culture and its got nothing to do with Pakistan and its culture so “Pakistani culture in UK” sound weird, it cud be “Culture of LOST PAKI. in UK”.

                    This is the simple and clear defination of a CULTURE by social sciences and anthropology and I don’t know whether those guys are right or wrong, realistic or not.

                    Buying land- Yes you’ve got to hire Thugs and BUDMASH if u buy it by dubious means otherwise....my parents and brothers never had to hire anybody.

                    Collectivism- My point was, we have collective approach which teaches us to live for others, to sacrifice thats why we’vent got problems like Divorce etc. etc. And even fewer men have the PLEASURE of divorcing their wives ‘cause they wanna have “A CHANGE”.
                    It is our culture where We don’t have individualistic approach so we are not SELFISH and divorce our spouse just ‘cause he/she snores.
                    Now Can u see the relevence, sir.

                    Learn to love yourself- See if u can’t infer the simple english of the matter how can u get to know our complex culture. I was just trying to tell u that rather then having a contemptuous behaviour towards Kasai, chamar we shud love them for whatever they are as human.

                    Marriages in UK- I was just emphatic on the point that If this is the only reason and the FACT then why those people, I mentioned, went to Pak. to marry even though they had cousins over here. Perhaps they represent minority, isn’t it?

                    Valima- Argument was not that whether Valima is a FEAST or not but whether its ban in Pakistan or not,isn’t it?

                    And if u want then I can fill u up on Valima.

                    High divorce Rate-
                    I wish u cud got the irony of my words. I meant its because you people ‘ve acquired western culture so blindly that u even have no respect for your own religion n culture and adopted western practices which are sort of Taboo in our culture n religion. Thats it.

                    Isn’t it "cheap" that you westerners take such a SERIOUS MATTER like DIVORCE so lightly.

                    Cousin Marriages-: The justification you heard from others and pasted it on your site, BEAUTIFUL.
                    What an educated response by a person who thinks that our parents are too uneducated to learn the scientific explanation of a cousin marriages and who calls himself REALISTIC.
                    Just tell me dear Farooq, have u ever endeavoured to find out the reality behind it....never ...and yet you are projecting these silly explanations to others and calling yourself an educated man, so very cheap.

                    ARAI- Cud be, I simply said I don’t know and Thanx as well, didn’t I?

                    Reasons against- I’ll go and see but I’m sure the reasons overthere wud be foolish and given by ignorant people like u.

                    Mirpuri- Another stinky stupid explanation, On one hand you are writing about Castes which as I said also present in Mirpuris and then on the other hand you are separating them from MIRPURIS.
                    Your tribal defination shud be either citywise or Castewise then one can say yeah! its LOGICAL and REALISTIC. To me your TRIBES sounds RACIST as well as Discriminatory.

                    Rajpoot-: Here you are again, u even didn't know and print it down. Something is terribly wrong with you.

                    Muslim women -:
                    Well, u look like a thorough gentlemen atleast acting like one. U never lie, everything you've got in your site is not only pathetic but Full of LIES. Islam has nothing to do with your IRON FIST and those who think it has they are naive like you, who have no indepth knowledge of the Islam and its teaching.

                    Islamic GROUPS n SECTs:- If I'm not mistaken, you said Brelvis etc. etc. as sect in your excellent site, didn't you.

                    The Mullah you mentioned is certainly ignorant like u and as I said these may be muslims but not necessarily their teachings are Islamic.

                    Conclusion-:
                    Your knowledge about Pak. is as shallow as foriegn born Pakis shud have but the difference is, their knowledge remains within but you are projecting it without any research so who's worst??? ask yourself.

                    If u haven't born in Pak. then why you insist in calling yourself "A PAKISTANI". Because you r never accepted in W'tern society and never 'll be. This is one of the reason you people are hangin' around here rather then on some BRITISH etc. site.

                    To Asim Hayat n you-:
                    We Pakis. have FAITH in GOD that keeps us hangin' all our life not like you who just can think of "WORST", thats it. we Pakis. are going thru a PHASE and we'll definately come out of it, Insha-Allah.

                    "Pevustaa reh shajar say umeeday bahaar rukh"

                    Antipode- slight disagreement, Pakistan was never an xperiment, it was a DREAM, A VISION and dreams........I have gotta strong believe in them, they do come true.

                    Shezi- yaar you've gotta "BURGER TYPE" name anyway saw your "capitalistic" post, aren't u criticizing for the sake of CRITICISM.
                    Lunch time,
                    See you around,
                    Cheers,
                    Kaleem





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                      #11
                      KKNIAZI and Antidote:

                      I think we will just have to disagree and leave it at that.

                      I hope this is my final post in this thread.

                      On a final note:

                      I am not against Pakistan. I want to see Pakistan prosper and become an industrious nation that stands alongside the best of nations.

                      My concern with the country of Pakistan is not as great as that of the Pakistani community that lives in the UK. If I see an injustice in my community then it is my duty to stand up against it. I have given up all hope for Pakistan. Pakistan will survive I agree but so do countries such as Columbia, Cambodia and Congo to name a few. You'll find that so many Pakistanis are in denial that there is a problem in the first place. I have offered little by way of practical solutions as I am seeking them myself. Perhaps you can start by suggesting some yourself ?

                      I want my Pakistani community in the UK to determine the direction future generations of Pakistanis living here are going to take. Like the country of Pakistan we have a choice an option to avoid some serious problems that are affecting the community here. I want us to do something about it and I'm sounding the alarm now before it's too late.

                      The monarchy is not the cause of any suffering in this country . However many aspects of our culture are causing marriages to break down and lives to be ruined. Someone has to stand up and say our culture has fundamental flaws which need to be addressed.

                      I find it interesting that someone who hides behind a pseudonym preaches about self respect ! My self esteem is quite healthy as I have come to terms with my faith and culture. I acknowledge the weaknesses within them. I'm hardly about to lose my cultural identity ! How about listing some of the positives yourself ? Why not start a thread about the successes of Pakistan over the past fifty years ? Or aspects about our culture that we can be proud of ? Help me out here !

                      Farouq Taj.





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                        #12
                        Again dear Farooq, u seem to be Lost in space and your arrogance towards the issue shows your intellect.

                        You, very rightly, should not be CONCERNED about the Pakistan and to be honest not even about Pakistani.
                        The fact is that so called Pakistani in UK or elsewhere are paying the price for "to provide a future with opportunities" as Muzna bibi put up.

                        I'm not sure when u say "my Culture or My Community" u mean Pakistani or British. But if it is Pakistani then I'll remain stick to my defination and just to tell you that your sufferings are brought unto you by non other then you yourself.

                        You people were opportunist and 'll remain. You were never sincere to your own country 'll never be to anyone, therefore SUFFERINGS are inevitable.

                        Tomorrow, when Pakistan will progress you are gonna run back to Pakistan, for sure. Proving that you were always loyal to Pakistan.

                        The Pakistani in UK will live like the way they are living, 'll have to face the RACISM of the civilized WEST, 'll be treaded down 'cause they can do and happy to do anything for MONEY.

                        I don't know Why u can't understand a simple thing that everything in world, all cultures have their FLAWS but why to blame Pakistani Culture, just do the positive comparison with west you'll find more FLAWS in Western culture. why to blame My culture?

                        Just look into history, you 'll find that WEST took centuries of plundering (of east) and so called industrialization to become prosper why u expect Pakistan to become economic giant in 50 yrs.

                        And mind it Mr Taj, if u pull out all the defence industries, which are dependent on our WARS, then WEST 'll be eating **** to survive.

                        Nothing left to say but thanx a lot for providing me an opportunity to laugh at your state of mind.

                        Looking forward to see your kids with the name like John or Shielaa.
                        Cheers mate,
                        Kaleem

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Don't make a hasty exit yet Mr.Taj!!. Seems like some of my remarks made you angry, but believe me that was not my intention. Also, what is wrong with using pseudonyms/nicknames whatever you care to call them. It's my prerogative to call myself whatever I want, I don't see a problem with that do you??.
                          Agreed that Pakistanis living abroad face many problems being in multi-cultural, multi-ethnic settings but lamenting over things is not going to help. The answer may be to start educating your own people about YOUR social values, and by all means incorporate the GOOD things from other cultures for after all, culture is a dynamic entity that changes with time and circumstances. Also keep in mind that change will occur gradually, don't expect miracles overnight. As for practical solutions for eradicating social evils, may I suggest the 'Each one teach one' policy of our Indian neighbors, to pass on true Islamic values to our friends, and in so doing a lot of the societal evils will be taken care of. For instance, Islam is against forced marriages, and women are at liberty to say no if they want to. However because of Hindu influence on the Mulsims of the Indo/Pak sub continent, things have gone haywire. Why not start a local social group that educates people about true principles of Islam and how they relate to the society they live in, instead of non-constructive criticism of things Islamic. There is plenty you can do by way of action, instead of feeling sorry for yourself, or making others feel sorry for their
                          Islamic/Pakistani background.

                          Sincerely,
                          Antidote.



                          [This message has been edited by Antidote.]

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