What is meant by FREE SPEECH???

[Mr Xtreme]

Re the ongoing discussion.

I think we have more freedom here than in most BBs I have been to and really there are enough different viewpoints at this place to attest to that.

My point is where in the world is there complete freedom of speech? Will America broadcast it's classified information on the evening news? Will Britain allow it's press to divulge State secrets?

The only site which was totally free of censorship on the net was Chowk and that got closed down by it's freedom loving administrators because people started practising their free speech a little too inventively.

People who really value free speech will realise that important issues get discussed very vigorously here and there is not really too much restriction other than keep language decent. If Gupshuppers don't like it they can always got to the alternative sites.

The numbers here though indicate that people far prefer this site to any other.

One suggestion:

If people are banned then we should be told why. As far as I can recall Shpooki seemed pretty harmless and Ironman before that was ok. You may know better but some explanation should be given so that it doesn't look like a personal thing.

[X Factor]

Yaara

ever heard howard stern or Man-cow radio shows, They can not say a number of things because of FCC regulations.

accha toh baccho FCC kiya hai? Yeh aik federal agency hai

iss ka kya matlab hai? keh yahan par aap jitna bhi zorr laga lain, some sort of monitoring is needed or standards ki zaroorat hai kyun keh sab log hum aap ki tarah suljhay huay ya tameezdaar naheen hotay.

Par sirkar, issue toh business sense ka hai na. I was told few years ago not to advertise my site here. Baat mujhe achi toh naheen lagi magar business aspect toh business aspect hai. Ab log blatantly aa kar advertise karain gay toh ban hi hon gay.

Baat kaam dhanday business ki hai...dont turn it into a fredom act.

Mr Xtreme did you use a different name a few years ago? I used the Malang name maybe we talked.

[Muzna]

Great idea Mr.Xtreme....couldn't have picked a better time.

I'll contribute more later on the main subject. Right now I would like to comment on the suggestion that you've made regarding presenting an explanation behind the banning of members.

I think I brought this up before too...will an explanation suffice? Will it serve to stop the "loyals" from creating an uproar? Will the "loyals" accept the explanation?

[NYAhmadiX]

Xtremom of Speech.

I am on Jury Duty and will express my self at a later time, but it is a very “misunderstood” notion, and you are the “most” misunderstood about what it really means. For one thing, it doesn’t mean broadcasting State Secrets (unless they are Iranian or Syrian), and secondly it also doesn’t mean a disregard for others’ right to be judged fairly. In USA there are laws to ensure that info being delivered does not transgress upon someone’s else’s right (i.e, religious, communal, gender, etc.). Freedom of speech simply means that the person giving out the information (if correct) will be immune to prosecution by Local, State, and Federal law enforcement agencies. It doesn’t mean that you can go on TV and start fabricating stories of sexual misconduct of Clinton with White House Interns.

The best example is perhaps Linda Tripp, she was free to give her testimony in the court, but is liable under Virginia laws for violating the privacy rights of Lewinsky (by tapping without her consent).

This concepts needs to be better understood (and no other better than you as a candidate).

Now I know, your response will probably be some low road to baconville or hookerstadt, but this is expected.

Speak your mind!

[ChannMahi]

Freedom of speech is my right to say whatever I want to say on whatever subject in front of 'you' and 'you' couldn't stop me from doing so even if you are god and I am challeging your authority of being god. NOw if I start calling you names and using exlicit words.....(that is not going to hurt your counter arguments and claims)but I lose my credibility. People listening won't give a **** about what I have to say because they will consider me not worthy of discussion.

Good discussion you have started here but lot of generlizations and wrong analogies.



>>> I think we have more freedom here than in most BBs I have been to<<<

Very subjetive statement. If I never saw a Eskimo, does not mean they don't exist.


>>My point is where in the world is there complete freedom of speech? <<

You are probably right....but does that mean if something is not there, it should not be there?, or it could not be there? No one is following religion with perfection, but we argue very hard that they should, don't we?

>>Will America broadcast
it's classified information on the evening news?<<<

Freedom of speech is your right to say your views, not my right to torture you and twist your arm to get your views out of your mouth. If one does not want to say something....fine don't. If you have some information you don't wanna reveal don't. In fact in such a case, if I force you to reveal it, I will violate your right to free speech. Won't I? Unless you committed a murder and I am Sherrif......but again you can take the Fifth.

It is not my freedom of speech right to ask Administaration of this site to reveal your IP add to me or how much money they are making or not making....of course if they feel the need to tell us how much money they are losing or making, its their right to tell us not our right to know it.


>>Will Britain allow it's press to divulge State
secrets? <<

same answer...will Pak.org allow me to know your IP address? or even do I have the right to ask for it? NO.

>>>The only site which was totally free of censorship on the net was Chowk and that got closed
down by it's freedom loving administrators because people started practising their free speech
a little too inventively.<<<

I don't know what happened on Chowk few years ago....by being inventive, do you mean they started using foul language?

>>People who really value free speech will realise that important issues get discussed very
vigorously here and there is not really too much restriction other than keep language decent.<<

You mean issues like how Mountain Dew can make you 'khassi'? or how hindu men eat dead women's vagina? or inquiries about how married people of gupshup do oral sex with their spouses? Its all subjective my friend.

>> If Gupshuppers don't like it they can always got to the alternative sites. <<

huh....again the same tota rutt......its like saying here is me and here is my views....and if you conform and submit to them you can pass through our galli if not never dare to come with 10 miles of our mohalla.....great. Keep it up.

>>As far as I can recall Shpooki seemed pretty
harmless and Ironman before that was ok.<<

So who decides what is harm and what is harfull and harmless, Harlmess to what? to whom? Is there something I am missing here?


>>You may know better but some explanation should
be given so that it doesn't look like a personal thing.<<

I agree 100%.

CM

[Mr Xtreme]

Muzna

I can't speak for the rest of the loyals, but I can speak for myself. People are using the fact that no explanation has been given to describe the admin here as a dictatorship. One mod who just resigned has left stating that she didn't agree with the principles yet I seem to remember her cutting and deleting quite a few posts and giving lectures on a few occasions about the tender age of some of the Gupshuppers. How does this tie in with 'free speech'? KG, if you are out there maybe you can give an explanation?

X-Factor,

hmmm...i knew I should have copyrighted that X. Anyway, the answer to your question is no, I didn't post under a different name it's always been this one. Some like it some hate it...but that's life. Howard Stern is a good example. In UK his shows are broadcast at a late hour so minors don't get exposed to it.

NYA

you seem to agree that freedom of speech is not meant to be taken literally and that it has it's limits.

>>Now I know, your response will probably be some low road to baconville or hookerstadt, but this is expected<<

that's a good point, but today I am really not in the mood for one of those discussions. But the very fact we have had them on this BB proves that discuusions with some reasoning are tolerated no matter how controversial the subject matter.

ChanMahi

Again, you are repeating what NYA has said and as you yourself point out freedom of speech is all subjective. Either you have total freedom of speech which means anything goes or you have 'relative' freedom of speech which is what exists in most freedom loving countries. Then who decides what is freedom of speech and what isn't? Gupshup admin have laid down their guidelines and if people don't follow them even after warnings then why surprised when they are banned?

If I go to Hyde Park in UK and start to slander the Queen I will get arrested. Who decides what is free speech and what isn't?

>>You mean issues like how Mountain Dew can make you 'khassi'? or how hindu men eat dead women's vagina? or inquiries about how married people of gupshup do oral sex with their spouses? Its all subjective my friend<<

Now here is a good example. These topics are all genuine and have some basis, although I'm not too sure about the mountain dew but that was a light-hearted comment and should be taken in the right spirit.

The dead woman's vagina/oral sex have some truthful basis so why is it a problem if people bring them up? I remember NYA describing the islamic prophet (SAW) in very insulting terms but the fact is he was still allowed to on this site which suggests there is a fair amount of leniency here.

In fact, NYA is a fairly popular contributor despite his readiness to insult the faith of his country which shows that people here are fairly easy-going.

If you know of any totally unmoderated forum then let me know about it and I will see for myself if it is workable or not. The only one I saw was Chowk and the stuff that ended up on there would make dead woman vagina eating seem like a tea party. I imagine it was a pretty disillusioned admin that closed it down.

[ChannMahi]

Xtreme, isn't there a corner in Hyde park where one can say anything one wants? I remember seeing it one time I was visiting London..some years ago. My host told me that one can say anything one wants in that corner....I don't remember the details though....it would be nice if you can elaborate a bit more on that...for information purposes only.


The reason I posted those 3 post names was to point out the foul language used in them. In fact there are many more where very foul words were used....one really ticked me off that I didn't read that thread again....the comment was also directed at some particular female participant and chauvenistic as well as dirty and no one edited it either. I am not saying that someone has danda in his hand all the times and watching us.....what I am saying is why do it selectively and give the impression of foul play. Either do it or don't. If you are going to delete posts that offend CM, the posts that offend Xtreme should also be deleted. Otherwise you are not fair. Don't you agree on that?

CM

[Mr Fraudia]

Chann Mahi

you can say anything at all in the speakers corner except against the queen, just like you can almost say anything in US except threatening the president.

I agree that one has to be equitable in how these threads are handled.

There are only two problems with it, one as I mentioned earlier is that the mod is not online 24/7 and just looking for stuff to delete and edit. for example I took on the responsibility in arts and culture and in career section because I thought we could have a good thing going.

Second is that each mod has only control on his/her section. each mod has his/her own style and each forum has its own personality.. There are times that one mod would tell another mod to check a thread becuase they missed something etc etc and the first mod is unable to dit anything if its not their section.

Das bout it.

[Mr Xtreme]

Chanmahi

I am not sure about Hyde Park so I can't give a definitive answer. I am pretty sure though that there are limits to what you can say, otherwise the Ku Klux Klan and their like wouldn't need to go anywhere else.

now you are saying that foul language ticked you off so much you didn't go back to read the thread again. Fair enough but if we have an unmoderated forum then you will have to get used to being ticked off on a pretty regular basis.

>>what I am saying is why do it selectively and give the impression of foul play. Either do it or don't. If you are going to delete posts that offend CM, the posts that offend Xtreme should also be deleted. Otherwise you are not fair. Don't you agree on that?<<

Well yes...to a point. I think I already mentioned that there are several posters here who regularly post anti-Pak material but as long as they don't sink to using gutter language they are generally tolerated.

Perhaps only bad language should be banned...but then someone might argue that that is an infringement of freedom of speech. I know Salman Rushdie would...

[Muzna]

Mr. Xtreme,

I guess I wasn't clear enough when I first used the term "loyals". I was using it to refer to the group of members that side with the party that has been banned.

No matter what explanation the Admin team or the owner of the site may offer, that group will usually reject it.

As far as kash's decision is concerned, I can't comment and maybe she will come back and answer your questions.

And if you are reading this kash, perhaps you can also answer some of your fellow mods that were surprised by your approach. They asked, "If kash had differences and really believed in making the place a healthy environment for discussion, as she has claimed, why didn't she raise the subject in the Mod section?"