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    whispers in the wind...damp..repulsive

    You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this GUPSHUP Forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this GUPSHUP Forum.

    Moderator posted November 28, 1999 05:11 PM

    ...People join the forum and come here in order to discuss subjects that are of interest. Since the majority seem to be young single, kissing, etc. are important issues and are of interest. I don't see why it is a problem for people to discuss it here...especially since often the Internet is the ONLY place they can do so.

    "Obscenity" is a legal term for a category of sexually explicit art and entertainment that the Supreme Court has said is without First Amendment protection. According to the jurists, obscenity is sexually explicit material that lacks any serious artistic or other value, is patently offensive, and appeals to "shameful or morbid" sexual appetites, as judged by the standards of a particular community.
    - A Guide to America's Censorship Wars
    - A humble request

    Sir, since the topics that the respected moderator announced legal, vaguely enter the definition of obscenity with respect to the social values of the intended audience, and clearly contradict your own membership terms, it feels a bit unfair to those who respect the above mentioned values.

    Since your site is an unrestricted one, and the contents of your website certainly demand some sort of age limit for the visitors of the site, please declare yourself a restricted site to avoid the unfair element.

    Minors all over the world, belonging to the culture of the aimed audience, access the site, some of the contents of which are certainly most inappropriate for minors to view. e.g. topics relating to the importance of virginity

    This declaration will add to your stunt of trying to increase the audience thru legalisation of explicit content ( which interestingly is cancelled off by the negative effect of banner ads for money)and would be legally more appropriate.

    Two important issues that you would at once bring up, and i would like to comment on:

    1) Minors can access obscene material from anywhere on the net not just this particular site.

    - True, but this particular site is adding to the harmful effect of illegal obscenity on the internet, on minors. And while I as a part of an organisation aim to fight all such websites, your site is one of the criminals and must be dealt with, verbally or legally!

    2) The modern ages and the development of Internet as a personal medium, must allow us to talk of topics we need to talk about, but are not allowed to, because of the social vaues we do not believe in, but are imposed on us by our parents. there must be a freedom of ideas on the internet.

    - True! But freedom of ideas on the internet also includes freedom of not dealing with a certain idea. for this very reason it could be the most appropriate thing for the site to do, to voluntarily place a warning to the audience of the sexually oriented or otherwise vulgar material they might have to come thru. Once that is done, it would be very simply one hundred percent legal to tell the member 'if you do not like a thread, please skip it.'

    [This message has been edited by midnight_messiah (edited December 01, 1999).]

    Forthrightly, I would say this is a little too fetish.

    One can talk about dating and kissing with out-of-bound sexual connotations and one can talk about both without doing so as well. One really has to look into the content and context before simply labelling such topics obscene.

    Virginity, in many cases, can be an issue that many young people may feel confused about. There is nothing wrong discussing it. Every body goes through the talk about 'bees and birds' at some point of his/her life. I think it is great that you can discuss it somewhere where such discussion is allowed under controlled environment (a moderated forum).

    Now, if you think all these topics are 'obscene' then that's your prerogative and you are entitled to it but using it to call the site 'one of the criminals' is outrageous and way out of line.


      Since this is not my particular forum, My comments do not represent the views of administration, but simply my own.

      The fact is that in most cases it is not the topics of discussion that are inappropriate, but how people write about them.

      Sex could be a taboo topic if a bunch of hoodlums was being crude, yet if aspects of it are discussed in a mature discusion oriented forum, it could be positive.

      The general sex education given to kids in classrooms covers many topics that have not even been brought up in the forum.

      Regardless, internet is a medium like television and magazines. the ultimate responsibility rests with parents who should monitor their children's use of any media and should dictate whether the minors should be accessing a certain site or not.

      As far as my own forum goes, like all other moderators, I am always open to suggestions from regular members and infrequent visitors alike.



      The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone.


        Greetings again


        would you kindly send me information about your organisation and its url. In the event that your group does not have a web presence, please email me the governing charter and related materials of the organisation.

        Once again, this is a personal and not an official request since this is not my forum.

        The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone.



          The official position of this Org need not be repeated every time someone raises a question. The guidelines are simple. A general walk through this forum will reveal its position. The Moderators, who were participants before joining the ranks, make the policies. It’s due to the same reason that every time a disciplinary action is taken, nearly 99% of our members feel that the decision was for the better of masses.

          A more common and unsaid rule is the 'common-sense'. People who like to discuss vulgar subjects will know if they are talking vulgar. For those who know, we tell them in advance, this is not the place. For those who don’t, we have ban policies. And in the history of these forums, only 2 people have been placed on perm bans. I strongly believe its a milestone for any South Asian website!

          This site is used to discuss issues along with the more obvious purpose; having fun! Teen-age issues are real life issues and with proper guidance, these can be solved easily and effectively. The goal of this site is to facilitate the communication between people. Hundreds of thousands of posts and less than a couple being deleted every month shows that the majority of our participants is a highly civilized and cultured group.

          And no, we are not changing anything in this website in terms of its rules. The participants bring about these changes. If a few stray posts come in once every while, we know how to deal with these.

          And, like always, we appreciate your sincerity. We believe that your intent was fair but the lack of a cultural knowledge (yes, GUPSHUP has its culture!) led you to believe something otherwise.

          your site is one of the criminals and must be dealt with, verbally or legally!
          As the president of this website, I can officially tell you to go ahead and make your case, if you intend to. We are so sure of consequences, that we wont even hire an attorney. Just let your people take a second look at website. I hope they wont like to waste their time. And I recommend the same to you too. Spend your time and energies on some other more useful activities. The world needs you. Not here though. We are all right.

          Azkar Choudhry
          President, Pak.Org


            Dear Azker,
            On the behalf of the administration of this website, you wrote a vague reply getting somewhat offended in the end, but you did not find it necessary to address the real topic. The sexually oriented topics that are often dicussed in your forums seem okay to the common sense only when you forget the fact that an unrestricted and unprohibited website like yours is being accessed by minors too. For a 12 year old accessing your site with no warning to himself or his parents, discussing virginity is a bit too early, if only you feel from his parent's point of view.

            One of your moderators very correctly pointed out that the responsibility of monitoring the kind of media the child has an acess to, lies solely with the parents. Internet is just one medium like, say, the video. But what i am humbly trying to remind is, even movies are rated, depending upon their content, as to what age group would they be suitable for being watched by.

            Please try to understand, the medium we live in knows no government control; has no censorship policy. You own a resource is such a medium, where no one has the authority to rate you, and there is, therefore, a heavy moral responsibility on you, to rate yourself! Please, please try to realize that responsibility. We are a part of the Internet and together we must be concerned about its 'health'.

            Sir, the purpose of bringing up this topic was not to find faults with your forum, nor was it intended to create an argument that the archives show us, have repeatedly taken place already. The only intention behind the thread was a humble request to review your policy so the concerned individuals such as parents of minors have an equal freedom to choose what idea they have to have access to. Only this choice would complete the freedom of ideas on the internet, and there is but no freedom without it!

            Respected memebers of administration, please try to understand, and please dont take this as a personal insult. We have nothing against your policies, your point of view, and please dont take us wrong.

            I feel you are mixing us up with something we are no related to! but there is a difference. while you hear demands from some, about changing your policies and implementing their moral values on all the memebers of the forum, we respect your policies and agree to your point of view about them. We only demand atleast a little wanring on the starting page as to what might be the contents of the forums.

            Adding a little message to the main page, atleast a FEW words wont harm your policies. It is not a matter of winning or losing, and you have all the right in the world to refuse to do so, but please be considerate about a part of your audience which needs it. Your forums, your policies, your point of view, your ideas, your services are here to stay, and success is your fate, as regards the idea behind this forum, but while you are at it, please dont forget some people somewhere in the world could get a tiny bit of benefit by a little message that some of the material in the forum might not be approrpiate for children below a certain age. I know the benefit is too small, but theres no harm in it either, and it would certainly count a lot in the long run, you being a role model for various other websites.

            Dear Azker, the words you quoted about verbal or legal action to be taken against the crimials was about the work of the organization as a whole, and you had already noticed in my first message as to what method was appropriate for your website. I however apologize for the misunderstanding. But even if i was rude, please dont punish the audience for that. A little wanring that you could place on the main page of gupshup would be beneficial for the general audience, and not for me. So if i said something rude, only i am to be punished for that. Please dont let that be a reason for you to refuse my request.

            Dear fraudiya, you are right. There is currently no presence of the organization on the web, but for a presence to be, pre-presence necessities are to be fulfilled. We contacted a list of websites with content comparable to that of gupshup, not pornographic as such, but certainly vulgar for those below a certain age or level of maturity. We believe in the maturity of the administrations of these websites, and therefore expect their co operation in this regard.

            I know your are reluctant to believe in me, and from your message it seemed like you took me as one of the individuals who like their own moral values imposed on the rest. And all i can do is hope you change your point of view. Sir i am not here to tell you what threads you have to delete because i firmly believe you know that more than me. Please try to understand, what benefit would a warning about the contents of the website provide me? Please dont take it as a personal fight, and although you might not think good of me as a person, please dont let that be a reason for you not to help us in our cause.

            I was willing to announce more about the launch of the organization later on, here in this forum, but since the administrator did not welcome me, i'll try to contact you on e-mail when we are up.

            I know this is too long a post, but the message is important. Please, i beg you, please be considerate! If your main page would read that "the contents are aimed at a mature audience", it wont make your main page look bad! P lease dont take it as a personal offence for the wanring to appear on your website. It would be your greatness, your maturity, and the sincerity of your purpose behind the forums, that would be on show with the wanring.

            I would not prolong this discussion and would end it from my side. This, as i have already said earlier, is a request, please treat is as a request and not as an argument.



              hmmm. I still think we are doing the right thing. Parents do not have to be warned. People who come here are sensible enough. I dont find it useful to add something that says its a 'for muture only' website; cuz we know its not.

              btw, you are welcome here. No offenses taken. Its just our way to protect ourselves agaisnt aimless attacks.

              Azkar Choudhry

              ps: I would still insist that you use your energies somewhere else. Seems like you are a dedicated person and people may really benefit from your ideas.


                As a parent of such minor children for whom this site might not be appropriate, I feel compelled to speak up. I believe a reference was made to movies etc, which are rated and thus parents can decide whether they wish their children to see it or not. While this is a valid point, again, the ultimate responsibility lies with the parents. Unless a film is rated "G", parental guidance is advocated for all the films. A parent cannot place the burden of deciding what is or isn't appropriate for THEIR children upon the filmakers, or others. I feel the same would hold true for this or any other website. The very nature of it should suggest to parents that they need to decide for themselves whether they want their children in it or not. I have 3 kids, all of whom have parental control blocks placed on their access to the internet. I feel that is only proper, as I cannot deny them access, nor can I be there with them constantly. Even my oldest (16yrs) has such blocks that are appropriate to his age level and he cannot access this site. Altho for the most part I don't mind the content, I don't like a lot of the language used and for that reason, I keep his access restricted. I have not found anything particularly obsene or vulgar, but like I said, I don't condone a lot of the language and for that reason, I don't allow any of my kids on this site. It makes no difference what kind of warnings one puts on, if parents cannot use their own common sense to find out about a site before allowing their child access to it, then they are not living up to their parental responsibilities. Personally, I feel more parental involvement is needed as the kids get older. I find, however, that in our pakistani culture parents tend to think they need to do less as their kids get older. But doing less doesn't mean others take up that responsibility.
                I think this is a nice site for desi's to come and explore such topics that they don't feel comfortable discussing at home. In several years as my kids reach college age, it would be nice for them to get on and be able to talk to fellow cohorts. Until then, I will do the responsible thing and maintain limits in their access to websites, rather than complain to the website that it should have a warning label!


                  Auntie .. your point is valid. If you feel this site may be a little too much for your children, please do use caution.

                  Personally, I would be a little more relaxed on my kids. There are several other things in the real life that need to be addressed rather than the nature of minor tones in language on this website. But I respect your opinion.

                  I am not negating what your saying but whats being asked is that we should put a MATURE rating on this webiste, which is not a fair asking. Compare us and one will find that we are much clean and dont tolerate any bad lingo. Whats being discussed and how its being discussed is no different what your kids will find in their schools or amongst their company. How far can one impose lingo restrictions? What I would do is teach my kids whats nice and whats not. And let them filter out these kinds of verbal tones. They will grow out to be more responsible and independent.

                  Keeping children out of the reach will only solve half of the problem. Education is whats really needed. And I am not implying taht take them to night clubs or something to show them how bad those things are.

                  I would teach my children values and tell them what kinds of websites are not really inteded for their view. Explanation will go a long way. Simple Parental controls will only raise their curiosity levels and resluts are not unimagineable.

                  AuntieG, believe me, we have come a long way to make sure this is a nice and safe place for all of our kids. Please drop in your comments once in a while to make sure we remain on track. Anytime a member points out a bad post, we immediately get to it (if it had been slipped our eyes).

                  If anyone sees a post that should not be here, please notify your mod or send me a personal message at [email protected] and I will make sure proper steps are taken.




                    Arent we forgetting something?

                    the topics referred here that arent appropriate for the 16 and 17 years old are being posted by 16 and 17 years old

                    There is a famouse saying in our culture qhich goes like this
                    bachay ki pehli darsghah us ki maa ki good hay
                    however this should be taken into uunderstanding that ppl of all ages visit this site and participate in the disuccions
                    Surely you wouldnt expect a person of thrity years of age to be dicussing cartoons ....


                      Wow...bohot achae bhieeeee bohot achae...
            'on get a life. If u don't like this site...why wasting time on here. No one has enuf time to read such a looooooooooong post. And I beleive that kids won't come here to discuss the topics. Just remember..when U were 12 ...were U interesting to read and discuss the topics rather to go and play?? main toh naheen tha bhi..
                      So my friend...aisa toh hota hei aisai kaamon mein

            's uncle G??

                      Oh ho..(Naadaan) nadia21...u r also here

                      Gotta go...

                      C ya
                      It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great law-giver, the Prophet of Islam. (Quaid-e-Azam Speech at Shahi Darbar, Sibi, February 14, 1948)



                        Welcome to gupshup.

                        Your first post here brings up some interesting points. I appreciate your concern about the functioning of the forum as well as our impact on those that choose to visit here. True concern for the welfare of others is something rare, and should always be recognized.

                        This forum is a place in which discussions are created and completed by the membership with moderation based on the guidelines of TOPP. Granted topics that are discussed can be very broad however, what my goal as a moderator is to monitor the manner in which topics are discussed. Most topics an be appropriate if the tone is respectful.

                        I would believe that this is quite cultural. I would also hazard to guess that some people feel that such discussion should not occur at all or that they are explicit automatically because of the topic. So, I understand your concern.

                        However, I believe that a child will not pick this site to learn about explicit y erotic or pornographic material..there are others that are much easier.and a bit more picturesque

                        In addition, in each discussion that occurs there is a wide range of opinions some liberal and other fairly conservative. I do believe that a minor reading that would find that the opinion varies greatly on the subject….and would learn that there are many people with very different ideas. They would then return to their parents upbringing and their morals…it is what I did. And personally, in this day and age…children need to know where they stand wherever they are and whatever they do.

                        But, again comments from our members are always appreciated….MM please do feel free to participate in all and any discussions here…we do enjoy the variety of opinion.


                          Azkar ChoudhryG,

                          <<I would teach my children values and tell them what kinds of websites are not really inteded for their view. Explanation will go a long way. Simple Parental controls will only raise their curiosity levels and resluts are not unimagineable.>>

                          I believe you might have misunderstood my point. I do not agree with the issue of having you place a "mature" label or any other label for that matter on this site. My point was that the ultimate responsibility lies upon parents and yes of course educating them is the whole key. If you are familiar with the concept of parental blocks, they are not meant to be the only thing a parent can do. They just provide a start and then parents need to fine tune things to their child's needs. The parental blocks give me the sense of security to allow my kids to be on the net without having me there with them at that particular time. That doesn't mean I shouldn't go on with them at other times when I am available, and explain about why certain sites are not good. I have allowed my son to read things on this site, when I am there to let him know WHY I don't allow him unlimited access to it. When I talk about language and tone, again, I think you misunderstood me. I realize my kids hear much worse stuff on the school buses each day, but at home I do ask that it not be used. I make sure my kids know I don't condone that type of stuff. But it's a little easier to say to my kids that "we are muslims and are different" when they are dealing with the non-muslim population. It gets a bit more confusing when those using such language are also muslims. Adults have no problems with this, but for kids, it can get confusing. I'm not saying I find anything wrong with this site - I enjoy it and come to it for the entertainment. But by that same token, I would not want my kids on here unless I were here with them to provide the explanations. Trust me, I know what my responsibilities are as a parent, and yet having been born and raised here, I also know firsthand of some of the problems my kids might face. Let's just say that I'm trying to raise my kids with the same values as my parents raised me, but without all the strictness. That can present a problem at times and that's when I have to use things like parental blocks, etc. However, just to go back to your point, EDUCATION is the ultimate tool in raising good kids and explaining things is certainly the way to go.

                          ShafiqG, sorry, no UncleG.


                            We would hereby sincerely thank the Administration of this website for their kind co operation in this regard. We are sorry for what you termed as an 'aimless attack' on your organization. It was just because we never thought it was an attack and we thought we had an aim. As for spending our ''times and energies on some other, more useful activities'', we could have been quite grateful if you had suggested some too.

                            On a personal note, although i finally did force the administration to welcome me, i wonder why you people are all charged up in the 12th month of the year! Its kind of strange, how you people sharpened your knives, loaded your guns and some even uncovered their canons. I thought it was supposed to be an idea, and was well-prepared to hear some very valid arguments against it; but i certainly had no idea people could take it as a matter of 'attack' and 'defense'.
                            Your foum is nice and all, but i guess i cant adjust myself to it. or maybe i'll come and post when everybody is less charged up how about summer?