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The battle of the sexes?

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    The battle of the sexes?

    Why is it that males and females are treated differently in the asian society today? In the place where i live if a guy is seen out with a girl it is ignored but when the tables are turned round and a muslim girl is seen out with a guy, people start to jump to their own conclusions. Not only that, it seems to be okay for a boy to go out clubbing, with friends etc but why is a girl kept indoors and is constantly being told 'no' to everything. You may think that this is a trivial problem but i don't think it is. Why do our parents still live in the dark ages? I think that girls should be able to do as they want just like boys, even if it means to stay out late.

    Salam Ukwali...

    I just have to say that your observation regarding sexism in pakistani society is bang on. First of all, Pakistani men in the UK are pretty Deehati (they love shuttin them up in houses and sometimes even beating them up (this in the UK !)) esp. the ones that are of the older generation or new in England. I think alot of Pakistani men are very emotional and narrow minded.

    You cant fully blame Pakistani men, pakistani women are so submissive that theyre afraid of filing for divorce or taking police action.
    If youre pakistani and youre a girl you better pray you have understanding parents.



      I live in London and can sympathize with your situation...even though I am a male and have no curtailments. You say that to redress the balance, girls should be allowed out and do everything that the guys can do....well, how about curtailing the activities of the boys too, so that everyone is in par with each other!!!! Interesting approach, don't you think? I am very broad minded AND yet cultural too. I'm also liberal, but I ask myself how liberal I will be when I become a father to my daughters?!!
      I probably need to do a touch more pondering on this thought!


        A very important issue, especially for young people of Asian / Sub-continent origin growing up in a Western society.
        Thanks for bringing it up miss_UK!!!!!

        If you want one word for explaination, it is "FEAR". Yep! it is fear that makes parents treat boys and girls differently.
        If you like me to elaborate, then read on.

        I am a first generation migrant from Pakistan living in a Western country. When I first arrived here, some ten years ago, I noticed that people from Pakistani / Indian community were living in the past. Pakistani society had moved on, and was ahead of them in many ways.

        However, these first generation migrants were desperetaly trying to hold on to the culture, traditions, and values that were considered out-dated in Pakistan. But for them these things were their most precious belongings that they brought with them from their dear old country.

        I think this desperation is largely due to the fear that they will lose their identity if they didn't pass all these things on to their next generation. It will all get lost. Their ancestors will look upon them from heavens in disgust. In case of Pakistanis, and Indian Muslims this behavior is more obvious and intense.

        As for double standards for men and women, it is an ancient phenomenon. It may be a good idea to discuss it as a separate topic as it is an issue not confined to Asians, or migrants. It is universal. The intensity, or should I say "cruelty" by which these double standards are applied may vary from place to place depending on the stage of evolution a society is. But I do believe that it exists in all societies, and all cultures in one way or another.

        Coming back to our topic, girls are viciously targeted by first generation migrants to carry their fine traditions forward and pass it on to their kids (i mean poota, pootee here or is it nawaasa, nawaasee? a dead give away if you were wondering about my sex )
        Girls are considered vulnurable (for example, they can lose their virginity, Khandaan ki izzat ka maasela, and then no accha desi khandaan will ever accept them).
        Even if she is really bright, and knows what is wrong and what is right (has a strong moral character), there is always a chance that she might fall in love with a man outside of our race, religion, culture etc... The parents know that men generally dominate women (that is the way of the world, or at least that is their experience). So, the logical conclusion is that she will submit to her man, and her kids will be brought up according to her husband's values and traditions (khandaan maiN naak cut jaayaa gee!!). Girls are, therefore, fiercely protected from influence of the evil west. Some people even move back to their old country as soon as their daughter(s) attain a certain age.

        Boys on the other hand are treated quite differently. Although most acchay khandaani loog will admonish their boys for staying out late at night, or for going to night clubs etc. However, a certain leniancy and restraint (in controlling their social life)is excercised. There is always a possibility (and ofcourse fear)that boys may rebel, and tell their parents where to go, or even leave them.

        Even if a desi boy gets completely out of hands and ends up marrying a goori, there is still hope that he will dominate his woman and she will be forced to submit to OUR values and traditions.

        Well, there are so many other factors, and we can talk for hours, but may be another time. I have tried to keep it simple, and focus on the topic, and used very simple examples to explain my view. The above is my very personal, and humble opinion, and ofcourse, I may be wrong.

        However, I hope this helps (to some extent anyway) in understanding why boys and girls are treated differently (as far as socializing is concerned)in migrant muslim families from sub-continent living in a western society.

        Understanding why? is the first step, and very important too. But it does not mean that we sit quietly (now that we know why), and shouldn't do anything to change the situation. I am not encouraging young people to disobey their parents here (hey! you must respect your elderes OK!?)

        The fact is that as Muslims, it is our duty to give women their due respect, and rights. Any behavior originating out of fear can never be based on the true spirit of Islam. Islam is such a modern, and dynamic religion, but unfortunately it has been hijacked by people who lack vision and instead of taking us forward, they are keeping us in a world that, perhaps, does not exist anymore.


        [This message has been edited by fairdinkum (edited July 29, 1999).]

        [This message has been edited by fairdinkum (edited July 29, 1999).]

        [This message has been edited by fairdinkum (edited July 29, 1999).]

        [This message has been edited by fairdinkum (edited July 29, 1999).]

        [This message has been edited by fairdinkum (edited July 29, 1999).]

        [This message has been edited by fairdinkum (edited July 29, 1999).]



          That was a really nice analysis. It was really well writen (you just might win an award for it) and you did a great job at making my earlier post look so ugly.

          But Hey, consider it quality ENTERTAINMENT.



            AnokhaUK You're the first guy I have seen who talks sense (like me).

            You are absolutely right, one day any of us bloke can be fathers of daughters, and its good you realise that.


              This was the topic 30 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago and now today its still the same and it will remain the same.

              I think if parents give time to their children both girls and boys behave the same way. I have been to nightclubs and I dont think that I would like my daughter be going to those clubs, I wont like even my son to be going to those places. But I think it depends upon the parents how they teach and train their children. In UK mostly people are from village background and though they are British by nationality they are still earning and sending money to their parents and families living in Pakistan and working hard here to earn more and more and dont pay any attention to their children and Maa'sha Allah children are doing whatever they like. This approach is wrong.

              I think both girls and boys should be treated the same way ... not like miss_uk who is asking why they are treated different way ... (dont take offensively) .. but miss_uk I think u are the victim of this discremination as well and u are protesting here on this forum. Well, if parents are saying something they are saying for the betterment of you. You should point out it to your parents to say the same thing to your brothers as well (if this is the case, sorry if I said something which made ur blood boil).


                You went to these night clubs and found out for yourself that these places are not worth visiting.... and now you have first hand experience right? You can give an earful to any moron who comes along and claims that there ain't nothin wrong with clubbing!

                Why do you want to deny this wealth of experience and knowledge to your children?

                One "EVEN" you used in your reply is very interesting! Sums it all up for us!



                  All I have to say is: Read the position of women in islam and you will see what kinda rules does islam has for women very much better then what is now in many cultures and societies, very cleaner also yup please do take time to read it in quran and hadith!


                  Till next time***K_I_S_S***


                    Faridinkum says:

                    >>The fact is that as Muslims, it is our duty to give women their due respect, and rights. Any behavior originating out of fear can never be based on the true spirit of Islam. Islam is such a modern, and dynamic religion, but unfortunately it has been hijacked by people who lack vision and instead of taking us forward, they are keeping us in a world that, perhaps, does not exist anymore.<<

                    asalaam o alaykum!

                    when Islam prescribes equality it does not talk in mathematical terms but implies equality before law. So dating or going out or friendship or like activities, which may lead to devilish life style, is equally forbidden for both sexes. And Islam is the first religion which has reduced such chauvinism, as illustrated by the person who first asked this question, to dust.

                    The parents who restrict their female children to go out, while allowing their male childrens to have a free hand in the so called modern life, are nothing but HYPOCRITES. And you all know what is prescribed for such munafiqs.


                      Hello fairdin, how is everything going here?

                      Missed you at the chat, see you around


                        Good to see you here!
                        Things are not really hotting up here.
                        See you soon!



                          Women In Shari'ah (Islamic Law) by Abdur Rahman I. Doi (1992)

                          *Presently a Professor at the International Islamic University, Malaysia.

                          Women in Society (Page 17-19)
                          Maulana Abul A'La Maududi has made a fine psychological distinction, however, between
                          women looking at men and men looking at women. The man, he says, " by nature aggressive.
                          If a thing appeals to him, he is urged from within to acquire it. On the other hand, the woman's
                          nature is one of inhibition and escape. Unless her nature is totally corrupted, she can never
                          become so aggressive, bold and fearless, as to make the first advances towards the male who
                          has attracted her. In view of this distinction, the Legislator (the Prophet) does not regard a
                          woman's looking at other men to be as harmful as a man's looking at other women. In several
                          traditions it has been reported that the Prophet (peace be upon him) let Aisha see a performance
                          given by negroes on the occassion of the 'Id. This shows that there is no absolute prohibition on
                          women looking at other men. What is prohibited is for women to sit in the same gathering
                          together with men and stare at them, or look at them in the same manner which may lead to evil
                          Social Behavior

                          The Shariah has placed restrictions on men meeting strange women privately. Similarly no other
                          man other than her husband is allowed to touch any part of a woman's body. The following
                          traditions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) are worth noting in this connection :

                          "Beware that you do not call on women who are alone," said the Messenger of Allah. One
                          of the Companions asked, "O Messenger of Allah, what about the younger or elder brother of
                          the husband?" The Prophet replied, "He is death".

                          (Tirmidhi, Bukhari and Muslim)

                          The Prophet said, "The one who touches the hand of a woman without having a lawful
                          relationship with her, will have an ember placed on his palm on the Day of Judgement."

                          (Takmalah, Fath al-Qadir)

                          Aishah says that the Prophet accepted the oath of allegiance from women only verbally, without
                          taking their hands into his own hand. He never touched the hand of a woman who was not
                          married to him.


                          Umaimah, daughter of Ruqaiqah, said that she went to the Prophet in the company of some
                          other women to take oath of allegiance. He made them promise that they would abstain from
                          idolatry, stealing, adultery, slander, and disobedience to the Prophet. When they had taken the
                          oath, they requested that he take their hands as a mark of allegiance.

                          The Prophet said, "I do not take the hands of women. Verbal affirmation is enough."

                          (Nasai and Ibn Majah)

                          It is most unfortunate, however, that in spite of this guidance from the Prophet (peace be upon
                          him) many Muslims have adopted the Western system of shaking hands with women, using these
                          traditions in respect of old women as justification. This is clearly an unreasonable extension of the
                          permission. It is therefore, submitted that the Muslims the world over, and ulama in particular,
                          must pause to reflect and stop this Un-Islamic practice which has crept into our society. There
                          cannot be a better form of greeting than uttering ASsalamualaikum (peace be upon you) and
                          greeting back with Waalaikumsalam
                          (peace be upon you too).

                          The Mosque - Page 29

                          There is a clear tradition of the Prophet (peace be upon him) encouraging women to offer their
                          prayers inside their houses : "The best mosques for women are the inner parts of their houses"

                          Since the Prophet had not forbidden women to attend the mosques, they continued to come to
                          the mosques. But after his death it became increasingly clear that it was not keeping with the
                          dignity and honour of Muslim women to come to the mosques for prayers, especially at night,
                          because men, being what they were, would tease them. Therefore, the Khalif Umar told women
                          not to come to the mosques, but to offer their prayers inside their own houses. The women of
                          Madina resented this prohibition and complained to Aisha. But they received a fitting reply from
                          her : "If the Prophet knew what Umar knows, he would not have granted you permission to go
                          out (to the mosque)".

                          It is reported by Abu Hurairah that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "The best row for
                          men is the first, and the worst for them is the last. The best row for women is the last, and the
                          worst is the first."


                          Divorce (Page 84)

                          Talaq is a right available mainly to the husband, but not to the wife. even though Islam allows
                          divorce, the Prophet (peace be upon him) says :

                          "Of all things that Islam has permitted, divorce is the most hated by Allah. " (Abu Dawud)

                          This shows that the right is to be exercised only when there are sufficiently compelling reasons to
                          do so. Hasty and wanton use of the right of divorce is regarded as most condemnable in Islam.
                          The Prophet said, "Marry and do not divorce, undoubtedly the Throne of the Beneficient Lord
                          shakes due to divorce".

                          Thus Islam encourages reconciliation between spouses rather than severance of their relations.

                          Repentance of the Slanderer (Page 126-127)

                          If a husband puts forward an accusation against his wife or a wife against her husband, the Holy
                          Quran lays down the following procedure :

                          "And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but
                          their own, their solitary evidence can be received if they bear witness four times with an oath by
                          Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth. And the fifth (oath) should be that they solemnly
                          invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie. But it would avert the punishment from
                          the wife if she bears witness four times with (an oath) by Allah that he (her husband) is telling a
                          lie. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her
                          accuser) is telling the truth. (24 : 6-9)

                          Women and Education (Page 138-139)

                          The Holy Prophet made women integral to his plan for Muslim education and learning when he
                          declared :

                          "An acquisition of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim, male and female"

                          The Holy Prophet made it a point of duty for every father and mother to make sure that their
                          daughters (and sons) did not remain ignorant of the teachings of Islam because they would, after
                          the marriage, have to play important roles as housewives and as mothers of children. In case the
                          parents had failed to impart such knowledge to their daughters, it was made incumbent upon
                          husbands to teach their wives the basic principles so that they would lead their lives according to
                          the teachings of Islam.

                          It is reported that Malik Ibn Huwayrith and a group of young men had come to live near the
                          Prophet and acquire knowledge from him.

                          When they decided to return to their respective homes, the Prophet told them,

                          "Return home to your wives and children and stay with them. Teach them (what you have learnt)
                          and ask them to act upon it." (Al -Bukhari)

                          "Ignorant and illiterate mothers cannot possibly rear their children and raise them to be good,
                          effective, capable and intelligent Muslims, in the world today" (Maryam Jameelah Answers
                          Questions, The Criterion, p.46)

                          To conclude, the seven brilliant jewels of a mu'mins faith (iman) as mentioned in these verses are

                          1. Humility
                          2. Avoidance of vanity
                          3. Charity
                          4. Sexual purity
                          5. Fidelity to trusts
                          6. Fidelity to covenants
                          7. An earnest desire to get closer to Allah

                          "Waqul Rabbi Zidni Ilma"

                          ps : May we benefit something from this.. INshaallah.. n makes us *think*

                          Till next time***K_I_S_S***